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When does legitimate become cheeze?

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by Splunge, Jun 9, 2003.

  1. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    In the current topic regarding Kangaxx the Demilich, it was suggested that using the Ring of the Ram combined with Improved Haste was a cheezy way to defeat Kangaxx. In my infinite wisdom :shake: (dang, I wish there was a "tongue-in-cheek" smilie), I countered that this was a "tried and true" method not deserving of the title "cheeze". (I also expressed concern that this could raise "yet another cheeze vs legitimate tactics debate", so I decided to take up my own challenge :D )

    So my question is this:
    When does a legitimate tactic become cheezy?
     
  2. Keihdra Gems: 2/31
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    Just as a case study, I suggest thieves with their traps. Thieves using traps to kill people is a legitimate tactic. Placing traps where you know an enemy will appear because of previous knowledge (whether a walkthrough or having played before) is cheese.
    For instance... Your bounty hunter enters a dark hallway. As he wanders down the corridor, he is surprised by various ghouls. He retreats back down the hall, sets a trap and waits for the ghouls to follow. Legitimate tactic.
    Next case... Your bounty hunter enters a dark hallway. You know that he is about to be ambushed because you have reloaded this six times already. He sets a trap, goes down the hall and lures the ghoul back to the trap. Cheese.
    What's the difference? You won the fight the same way both times, but you used knowledge that the bounty hunter could not have had to win the fight the second time.

    Just my two cents :heh:
     
  3. Oaz Gems: 29/31
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    For me, it's cheese when I start feeling bad about it.
     
  4. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
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    Unfortunately theives traps become cheeze after your first time through. However for harder fights it basically impossible to win without traps plus yoshi dual class cheeze. (Improved Illyich)
     
  5. Blog Gems: 23/31
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    There's a fine line between "clever way to exploit things in the game" and "abusing things in the game."

    Take the classic Lower Resistance + Greater Malison + Finger of Death example. Is it a cleverly chose sequence of spells, or is it plain cheese?

    Obviously different people will have different opinions on which tactic is cheesy and which is not. And each case could probably be argued both ways. Oaz probably said it best; if you feel bad about it, it's cheesy for you.

    Personally, I think taking advantage of bad programming is cheese. This includes stuff like Cloudkill in fog of war or closing the door, or fake talk, or that item-swapping thing. Using spells combos, or exploiting monsters' weaknesses (the blade barrier cheese if monster cannot see invisible) are legit in my view.
     
  6. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    This seems to be the concensus. The Kangaxx strategy is IMO legitimate, because to pull it off you're using the given abilities and mechanics of certain items in the game to their best potential outcome. The combining of several different abilities for a better result is just plain good strategy. Strategies like 'fake talk,' however, would not occur in a bug-free, ideal non-synthetic setting. Basically you have to ask: Could I do this if the game was 100% bug free? If the answer is no, then it's straight cheddah, yo. :cool:
     
  7. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    All good points (I agree, Blog, Oaz said it best). Actually, my original point (which I failed miserably in trying to get across) was somewhat different, since I wasn’t really trying to start another standard “cheeze tactics” debate. (Having said that, I’m not necessarily looking to end this one, either. ;) )

    Let’s say we’re talking about a tactic that is generally accepted to be “non-cheezy” (for example, using a Protection from Magic scroll to help you in your battle with Kangaxx), but that's been around for so long that it is getting somewhat, shall we say, “stale”. Does this tactic eventually fall into the category of cheeze simply due to its “staleness”? (BTW I’m not suggesting that it does. Personally, I think that if you have a legitimate method that works, there’s nothing wrong in sticking with it. But I’m curious as to what other people think.)
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Of course not. A tactic does not become cheese simply because it has been used a lot, it becomes cheese because it smells like Limburger. For example, you beat the Twisted Rune crew and snag the staff of the magi. Your party mage then takes full advantage of all of the perks, bells and whistles that accompany the staff. Is it cheesy? Not if you are using it as the game is designed. If you do the smash, switch weapon to be invisible, smash again, lather, rinse, repeat, isn't that exactly what the things begs for? Same with those scrolls. Why do you think Ribald happeds to sell one +4 weapon and a couple of protection from magic scrolls? Hmmm....

    Now, if you do the project image, summon 5 planetar tactic, that is surely cheese, because the game designers wanted a party to be able to summon one of those types of beings, and getting around it with a bug in the game that doesn't check image summonings is pure cheese.
     
  9. Stu Gems: 20/31
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    Isnt a palantir created from the 10th level ToB spell? prove the point though.

    Also doesn't Kangaxx use some sort of illegal spell trigger/contingency? with 5 or 6 spells in it.
     
  10. Arian Gems: 5/31
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    Yes, he uses an illegal trigger, don't remember what it is though. But come on, he's a lich. Too cool for us.
     
  11. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
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    Lol if they constrained half the enemies in this game to our rules It would even be a breeze to get through.
     
  12. Duke Eltan Gems: 14/31
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    Keihdra > That is one of the most stupid things I´ve seen. No offense. But think about it once more.

    So what you´re saying is that you never cast any protection spells or so before a big battle? Because your party doesn´t know that there will be a big battle up those stairs for example.
    Because, if setting up a trap in advance isn´t legitimate then why would casting stoneskin and mirrorimage be?


    It becomes cheeze when you edit with SK or use CLUAConsole. All else is just ugly tricks or the right way to do it :D
     
  13. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
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    In Role Playing terms Kehiedras right actually. Your character might just be a paranoid bastard who sets a trap in every corrider he passes, but then you have to make sure to set a trap in every corridor you pass to role play. Otherwise its not proper role playing to set traps when you know that theres a hostile party in the Den of Seven Vales, yet you havent set a trap once in the entire game, unless your char is a paranoid bastard who only sets traps in inns. Lol, theres so many ways to role play this game, hehe.
     
  14. Duke Eltan Gems: 14/31
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    How do you feel about the protection spells then Srtifestrike? Do you constantly walk around with them on and rest as soon as they end so you can cast them again or do you actually cast all of them as soon as the battle starts?

    Or as me, before you know there´s gonna be a big battle.
     
  15. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
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    When I want to role play I cast spells during battle. In this case I usually Aerie as she's a useless fighter anyway and she can spam pro evil radius 10' and defensive harmony while throwing out Abis.

    Ive never heard of an adventurer wizard not having some sort of protection at all times... its completely outside the realm of roleplay to use stoneskin during a battle, unless I want to make an absentminded mage, which I dont.

    PS: I should mention that I havent roleplayed since I finished the game the third time. Now I'm trying to powerplay through tactics and ascension in the shortest time while still doing all quests. So far I've done everything in chp2 cept Twisted Rune and am right now in Underdark in 31 days.
     
  16. Duke Eltan Gems: 14/31
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    Level 16 archer at 2460592Xp in 23 days. On my way to Bodhi the 2nd time to lay down the smack and get me Lanthorn back :D
    Can do better though, been abit lazy this time.

    Yep, I´m all for the powerplay to nowadays.
    So put up your trap if it feels alright for you :)
     
  17. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    @Strifestrike:
    Maybe I'm just dense (well, OK, I am dense), but I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that stoneskin somehow inhibits spellcasting (which AFAIK it doesn't), or am I just completely missing your point? :confused:
     
  18. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    My take on that comment was that any sane mage would put on stoneskin before he brushed his teeth in the morning, given the duration of the spell and the likelihood of a battle at any given moment, and would not wait to be attacked before raising it.

    Put simply, if I were a mage, I'd memorize at least three stoneskins on the theory that I'd pop one on first thing in the morning, and I would probably have at least one or two battles that might impact it before I was ready to lay down for the night. (I'd rather be a sorceror, with a little more fluidity in the number of spells.) It's a big, scary and homicidal world these characters live in.
     
  19. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yup, I'm dense all right. dmc, I think you're right. It was the "absentminded" part that threw me, but now I realise that he just meant that not having stoneskin on "first thing in the morning" is just being forgetful, ie absentminded. So, everything makes sense now.
     
  20. Duke Eltan Gems: 14/31
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    Ofcourse stoneskin all the time since the duration is great. But I´m talking about everything from Bless to Defensive Harmony. Dont tell me all you guys start each tough battle by casting Mirror Image, Blur, Globe of Invulnerability, Bless, Defensive Harmony, Chant and so on and so on. You do that before you know there´s gonna be a big battle. Atleast I do, even though my characters dont know that there is an enemy there just because this is my sixth attempt on this fight.
     
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