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What Will it Take?

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by The Shaman, Nov 11, 2006.

  1. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    Hamas did offer a 10 year ceasefire. Surely it should have been given a chance.

    There is now peace in N.Ireland, so don't repeat our mistakes.
     
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    TGS,
    what are the settlements in Palestinian territory about?

    You are right to stress Israel's right for self-defense. The Palestinians are right to point out that the hilltops where the settlers, with tacit backing by the Israeli government, set up their strategically located camps and villages are their territory. Settlements are an open provocation. The Palestinian defense against that was the First Intifada. In reaction to this uprising, Sharon ordered to break the bones of those rebellious Palestinian, many of whom were youths. That order was carried out. One cannot blend that out. So when the weather changes those who were there probably are reminded by that feel in their bones.

    My point in this is that the Israelis have done their part to contribute to the mess, and when Rabin wanted to fix that he was assassinated by a fanatical Jew. It is not an act of anti-semitism that Israel's internal security service see Jewish extremism their second most important problem.

    Orthodox Judaism and Zionism and Israel go together. Israel will always have a zionist direction, and naturally that includes territorial expansion to biblical borders. Realists may come and go, but the call for it from the right will be perpetual. That this leads to an inherently confrontational approach toward Palestine is inevitable. With the wall built the situation will soon be that of Palestinian favelas (or Bantustans) in the valley, and Israeli islands of prosperity on the hilltops.

    When Israel already has dual-class citizenry, divided in Jews and Christian Arabs and Bedouins, why should the Palestinians expect a significant improvement after a settlement? Do you have an idea what Christian Arabs with an Israeli passport go through at security checks in Israel? Nice words to describe it would be arbitrariness and chicanery. Israel's new minister for strategic affairs Avigdor Lieberman called for Israeli Arabs to be deprived of their Israeli citizenship and to be expelled from Israel due to their 'dual loyalties'. A call for ethnic cleansing. And that man is quite evidently acceptable for Olmert and the US (iirc he was just there for a visit).

    That the Palestinians can't go over the street without quarreling who's in charge and are corrupt and brutal is another point.
    You are, however, perfectly right, when you say we hold Israel to a different standard. I think we rightly do.

    I don't have a solution for Israel, but I know what a dead ends look like.
     
  3. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    @Cuch

    Offering a cease fire and effecting one are two totally different things. Having one group say they will stop firing rockets at Israeli towns, while another twenty groups keep launching isn't really a cease fire. At least not by my definition.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but peace in N. Ireland wasn't because of anything the British did, it was what the Irish did. Basically, they stopped bombing, shooting and attacking people. When that happened British reprisals stopped.

    @Ragusa

    You are blowing smoke at a very simple problem and making it seem more difficult than it really is.

    You can post as many examples as you want as to the wrongs done by the Israelis. I' m sure I can post a wrong done to the Israelis in a tit for tat if you want. You can post about all sorts of extremist Israelis all day long. However, you are being misleading if you are trying to portray them as the common Israeli citizen.

    I asked in my previous post "Which group would slaughter the other?" I noticed that you didn't answer the question. It really is that simple when you are trying to figure out who wears the white hat and who wears the black one.

    You are correct that it is a dead end. The difference is that blaming Israel for the impasse and expecting them to do something about is ridiculous. They are the ones fighting to protect their own existance.

    The only hope for peace is a strong Pal/Arab/Muslim/etc. leader who can unite their people in peace and making it stick. Hopefully, we will see it in our lifetimes.
     
  4. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    I'm not blaming Israel for it. I say they're both guilty. Different point. My point is that offering nothing to Palestinians for sucking it up but not bombing them is an insufficient incentive for Palestinian moderation. It just can't work.

    You're going cheap if you only put the burden of goodwill on the Palestinians. Having contributed to a situation means you cannot go for maxed out demands for a solution if you want to negotiate as opposed to imposing your conditions. The latter means demanding the Palestinians to surrender, which is unlikely to happen, but just what current Israeli policy aims on.

    Rabin understood that, just like Barak - Sharon, Netanyahu and Olmert don't.

    That said, it's not just the Palestinians who urgently nead a 'Great Man' (or Woman).
     
  5. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    This can also be intrepreted as Sharon, Netanyahu, and Olmert understand that they are dealing with a foe who cannot be reasoned with, Rabin and Barak did not.

    Two sides of the same coin.
     
  6. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Peace you have to make with the enemy, and in Israel's case they can't choose him.

    On the other hand, if peace is impossible, what is the alternative? Your argument, thought to the end, leads to what? Fight to the hilt, until either the Palestinians break, or die? Driving them out entirely?

    Personally I think that what you do, changes your character. An initiating experience for every Israeli is military service, usually in the territories. The IDF has been mopping the floor with Palestinians in the territories for two and a half decades, inflicting the usual kill ratio of 1:10 or 15 on the Palestinians. Add to their piss poor military performance their acts of terror, it is hard to feel much more than contempt for the Palestinians. I think that's just the Israeli right wing position. I think they got used to chasing them around for sports with near impunity. It's like these satisfying parties of chess, where you dominate the opponent. Beating up kids makes you an arrogant prick. I think that the Israeli right wingers, in face of their military superiority, expect to win if they only hit hard enough. They think they don't need to compromise in any way. I also think they err.
     
  7. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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    Yeah, but Britain--at least in the latter half of the century--didn't conduct its reprisals with helicopters, tanks, bulldozers, airstrikes and the like. They realized that such measures were counterproductive, and served only to inflame the situation.

    Too bad the Israelis can't figure that out. But, hey, I guess I can't cast stones, as the American military still hasn't learned how to conduct counterinsurgency campaigns properly.

    Actually, that's not true; the knowledge is there (see the new field manual). We're just not acting on it.

    That 'understanding' is contingent on a view which holds that the Palestinians have no legitimate grievances. A glance at any footage--peacetime or wartime--from the Palestinian areas, contrasted with footage from Israeli areas, shows how erroneous that notion is.
     
  8. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    AMaster is completely correct.
     
  9. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
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    It's really easy to answer this one to be honest. Both groups will slaughter each other if they had the chance and no fear of world outrage. To blame the Palestinian side that is provoking is at least an one sided and very biased conclusion. The whole issue is a burden that weights both nations neck with guilt.

    Israel is not an innocent victim, it was never. The military power of this nation is enough to crush all of the surrounding countries in one big sweep. And the rumors of nuclear capacities are not so rumors anymore, after Olmert's tongue mistake. What many are suspecting he managed to partially confirm. And imagine what will happen when and if it confirms de facto too.

    As i said before it's ridiculous to say that they fight for their existence. The threat of it is long gone and the last doubts where blown by the wind that was caused from the 7 days war. Not even Iran's President is daring to propose an open assault at Israel. Because he knows that his armies stand no real chance, even if they combine with other nations.

    Israel for the last 10 years and more is on the first seat as far as Middle East power is concerned. And frankly Israel has managed to abuse its power way too many times.

    As for the 10 year ceasefire, i remember that it was broken when a missile landed on a beach in Dead Sea where Palestinian families were. Not the other way.

    Like it or not the ethnic purity of Israel is something that many (hopefully not the majority) within Israel want. If you see that the treatment of non Jew citizens is sub par, i guess the conclusion is pretty obvious. The Wall they built was something that UN advised against. Israel just decided to put the advice in the reconsidering basket (read garbage basket).

    Both entities are to blame and the more of this fighting goes on, the slimmer are the chances to have at some point peace at that god forsaken land.

    We have talked about this many times, but nothing will ever come out of it. The people within these lands are binded to this never ending circle of death and hate. Until they decide that they really want peace and start doing the necessary compromises from both entities, that peace will never happen.

    We are outside of this and so we can't really grasp what is going on the minds of all people there. But surely if someone was coming in the middle of the night and tear down my house with bulldozers or missiles, i wouldn't be that gentle to that person. And so unwillingly from a certain point of view i would serve my time in that never ending circle of death and hate.

    Israel is as much innocent as Palestine in this mess.

    EDIT: Ragusa good to see you after so long :)
     
  10. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    Kudos to TGS about bringing the point about the soldier. What was the last thing that you've heard on that? I remember hearing that Italy was trying to barter a deal, but it was probably for the Hezbollah prisoners. Anyway,I'd be more than surprised if the prisoner is dead. I do not believe that the Palestinians, at least the upper echelon, isn't reasonable enough to recognize a bargaining chip when they see one. Anyone who can negotiate for the release of Palestinian political prisoners will get a lot of prestige - and probably power - because of it. While it's a common refrain that some people "can not be reasoned with", I think that anyone who's been sane enough to get to power is almost never in that category. Posturing and saving face aside, I'd say even Fatah can be dealt with. Sure, it might be done indirectly, but many of the big compromises of the 1990s were done with outside help.
     
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