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Warding Whip vs Ruby Ray

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Marceror, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    For a long while I've questioned which of these spells were better to have memorized. I've generally believed that warding whip was the better spell, as it removes a separate protection each round, for, I believe, 4 consecutive rounds. But it "only" affects up to level 8 spells.

    Ruby Ray is a one time shot (i.e. no recurring spell protection removals), but it affects up to 9th level spells. That said, I'm not aware that there are any 9th level spell protections out there. Absolute Immunity doesn't qualify, as this can be removed with good ole level 5 breach.

    So to me, the extra spell level of Ruby Ray is pointless, and Warding Whip is the superior spell because it will keep dispelling protections for several rounds.

    That said, I reguarly hear other players talk about Ruby Ray as a favored spell, so I figure I must be missing something here. So please, somebody invite me to the Ruby Ray club, and let me know just what I'm not noticing. Why is Ruby Ray seemingly preferred over Warding Whip?
     
  2. Marvin^42 Gems: 4/31
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    I'd guess it's because RRR is the only protection removing spell that's not abjuration, and most casters have SI:divination or abjuration, not so much alteration.
     
  3. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Well then, that would certainly qualify as a HUGE difference that I completely failed to notice!

    /slaps self in face

    Thanks. I think that's exactly the detail I was looking for.
     
  4. thetruth Gems: 11/31
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    Yes as Marvin^42 said R.Ray is not an Abjuration spell so against enemies with SI: Abjuration (the most common in tougher enemies) is the only one that can remove the SI.

    And there is a 9 level protection spell that gets removed by RR. The Spell Trap.
     
  5. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Okay, good, thanks guys. It all makes sense now! Now if only life were this crystal clear to me, then I'd really be set!! :thumb:
     
  6. starwalker Gems: 16/31
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    I find a combination of the two really works nice. Ruby Ray will break down certain protections and once it does throw on the warding whip to break down the rest or even certain future protections that can be annoying. Warding Whip can play havoc on an enemy that likes to cast PfMW on himself a lot. But you may need Ruby Ray to break down certain starting protections for Warding Whip to do it's job.
     
  7. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Agreed that they make a nice combo. Use Ruby Ray to work around or take down spell immunity:abjuration and/or spelltrap, otherwise use warding whip. Or, depending on the situation, pierce magic or spellstrike.

    But I don't think warding whip takes down PFMW (it shouldn't) since that's a combat protection rather than a spell protection. Breach should be used to take that one down.

    As an aside, anyone find it odd that there's like close to 10 different spells to remove spell protections and really only 1 to take down combat protections? (well, dispel magic/remove magic also does the trick sometimes, but these aren't combat protection specific)
     
  8. starwalker Gems: 16/31
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    It's a spell designed for all protections up to 8th level even though it's description is misleading. It takes them out individually working from the highest down as I recall. It will take down PfMW and it will take down most any others except for Spell Trap and Absolute Immunity as they are 9th level spells. it's weakness being that it is an abjuration spell. The Spell works exactly like it's supposed to.

    It works for a total of 3 or 4 rounds. don't remember which right off hand but in that time it will either take down protections already on the mage or it will take down new ones cast pretty close to as soon as they are cast.

    It's also the same level as Ruby Ray. These are some ofthe most powerful spells of their kind being level 7 and this is why they are capable of these kinds of things. Ruby Ray is a non-abjuration spell and hits 9th level spells. Warding Whip hits 8th and affects a person for multiple rounds taking care of the need to cast such spells repeatedly for a few rounds.

    This is why they are a great combination and despite taking up precious 7th level slots this is the reason why they tend to be some of the first spells I go for at high level when it comes down to taking down a mages defenses.


    As a Side Note. The PnP Khelben's Warding Whip has nothing to do with spell protections. It's actually a defense against the line of Bigby's spells. The list of what it does is the following to spells within 30' of the caster:

    *The whip confers to the user immunity to the Push spell
    *The whip will immediately dissipate a Shield spell without effect to itself
    *The whip has a 40% chance of destroying a Tenser's Floating Disk{/I] per attack. The Whip is not affected.
    *The whip affects any of the Bigby's Hand spells as follows...
    Interposing Hand- Destroyed, with a 20% chance of the whip being destroyed as well
    Foreceful Hand -- 90% chance destroyed per attack, with a 30% chance of the whip being destroyed per attack.
    Grasping Hand-- 80% chance destroyed per attack, with a 40% chance of the whip being destroyed per attack
    Clenched Fist-- 70% chance destroyed per attack, with a 50% chance of the whip being destroyed per attack
    Crushing Hand-- 65% chance destroyed per attack, with a 60% chance of the whip being destroyed per attack
    Lesser Bigby spells (strangling grip, battering gauntlet, fantastic fencers, etc) are destroyed upon contact with the whip as would be a Shield spell.

    *The whip has no affect on nonmoving magical barriers such as a Wall of Force or Prismatic Sphere
    *The whip has no affect on spells that do not use magical force as a solid entity such as holds, slow, reverse gravity, etc.
    *The whip cannot harm living objects, and so cannot be used as a weapon.
    *The whip has no affect on spells that take affect instantaneously.
    *The whip can be used to parry physical attacks, including those from magical weapons and weapons of magical force ( decastave, spritual hammer, etc). This Parrying has a base 60% chance of success plus 2% per level of the whips caster. An attack parried this way does no damage, but the wizard using the whip must have initiative over his attacker in order to parry.


    So if people are in the mood to fix things. Might take note that no matter what we do to the spell it has nothing to do with the real Khelben's Warding Whip Spell. So you might be better off fixing the problematic spell description and not what the spell affects itself.

    By the way if you wish to test it. Just make a mage in the start of ToB. You'll be able to pick both PfMW and Khelben's Warding whip. Cast them on yourself in the propper order and you will see that the spell does indeed remove it and pretty much all other protection spells.

    [ June 16, 2007, 00:41: Message edited by: starwalker ]
     
  9. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    Wait a second! :whoa:

    Does Warding Whip dispel combat protections as well? Like stoneskin, PfMW, Mantle, Improved Mantle, Pro from Energy, Elements, etc. I did not know that. :confused:
     
  10. starwalker Gems: 16/31
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    Mmm. I've kept playing with it and it only takes down certain ones. Some spells I mostly ignored anyway even if they were protections on my enemies.

    It's only PfMW and a couple other annoyances that it takes down. It doesn't take down StoneSkin. from my playing around. But then I'm usually not bothered too much by stone skin by the time I hit that kind of level. Stone skin is usually a lower level frustration for me.

    So it could be an oversight of some kind in some direction. Either way it's a spell that's not even close to the PnP version.
     
  11. thetruth Gems: 11/31
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    Starwalker K.Warding Whip does not remove PfMWs.
    It removes exactly the same Spell Protection spells as R.Ray does except from Spell Trap.

    And yes unfortunately there are many Spell Protection removal spells but only Breach and R.Magic/D.Magic as Combat Protection removal spells.
     
  12. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Yeah, Starwalker, maybe the reason you think Warding Whip can take down PfMWs is because that spell has such a short duration. Perhaps the spell is just wearing off after it's 4 rounds are up, and you're thinking that your Warding Whip killed it.
     
  13. Stu Gems: 20/31
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    Btw, how many mages in the vanilla game actually use spell immunity: abjuration? I traditionally just always went with the Breach and Bash combo. I haven't played the vanilla game in a while though, so my memory might be a tad rusty.
     
  14. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    AFAIK vanilla game does not have any enemy using Spell Immunities.

    Even if they use SI:Abjuration via a mod, Breach still works. (Liches are immune to Breach by nature, however.) SI:Abjuration only blocks Dispel/Remove magic effectively for some reason. (bug? glitch?)

    However, Sikret's excellent IA mod's new version makes SI:Abjuration block ALL abjuration spells including Breach and the like too! You need a Ruby Ray to bring down the defenses of such an enemy! And pray they don't have a Spell Shield active too.
     
  15. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    I'm like Stu on this. "Breach and Bash." (Great term! I like it!) I've always tended to have my mages memorize all of their (or all but 1) of the L5 spells as Breach, just because it's so much more useful than most anything else. If I left one slot open for something else, it was usually Chaos.


    One of the interesting things about all these various arcane defense and counter spells is that with all of the arcane spell casters in BG2, it tends to reduce the number of offensive spells that your spellcasters can memorize, whereas in IWD2, without any counter spells except Dispel Magic, mages tend to have many more offensive spell slots available for offensive use.
     
  16. rich0203 Gems: 2/31
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    I was just reading this and decided I need to get the AI mod. I am playing the vanilla game with a few tweaks and was going to say "just use breach and spellstrike/pierce magic" but find my comment wasted. I would greatly welcome a chance to fight a smart lich. My tactic is usually say "hi" to them, them walk away until there magic fades and they kill the demon. Once I'm higher level, something easy like pierce magic and a spell usually kill them.
     
  17. Truper Gems: 8/31
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    In the vanilla game, there is one enemy who uses SI: Abjuration, and that is Draconis in his dragon form. That's what sent me running to these boards to learn what makes Ruby Ray unique ;)
     
  18. Rastor Gems: 30/31
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    There's actually two. Spellstrike will also remove combat protections.
     
  19. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I don't think so rastor. IIRC, "Spell"strike knocks down all "spell" protections. It doesn't take down PFMW, Mantle and the like. That's what breach is for.
     
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