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US plane blowing up an UK convoy footage.

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Sydax, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Sydax Gems: 19/31
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    This happened in 2003 in Iraq. Somehow, The Sun newspaper got a copy of the video, so now the UK wants that video. How a newspaper got hands on that?
    How come that UK didn't realised that it was an US plane who blew up the convoy? Or is that just now, that a newspaper made public what happened, all the sudden UK is interested in what happened?
    Link

    [ February 13, 2007, 14:54: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  2. DarkStrider

    DarkStrider I've seen the future and it has seen me Distinguished Member

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    No, Sydax you have it wrong we've known all along that the americans killed the convoy but it was classified by the military and governments as "friendly fire" i.e. an accident. There is an inquest into their deaths going on, the US has up till now refused to release the video footage, somehow the Sun gas fot a copy which casts doubt on the "friendly fire" theory, the family of one the dead wants Justice, ie the pilots to stand trial.
     
  3. Erod Gems: 14/31
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    How does that cast doubt on the friendly fire theory? According to the transcript, the pilots were told that there were no friendlies in the area before the attack, only after the first attack was there new information regarding any friendlies. Seems like a clear situation to me. The boy knew the risks well enough when he signed up.
     
  4. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    I doubt that they tell them "Well, the enemy may kill you and, believe it or not, so can our allies." That can't be good for the morale.
     
  5. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Considering their performance it could hardly have been the Iraqi air force.

    No seriously, the Bush men are obscessive about US troops, or horrors, they themselves, being held accountable. For some comprehensible reasons. And for some sinister reasons. They are stonewalling because of that. They fear 'political instrumentalisation' of such cases. And of course, see inferior legal standards everywhere else, like at the ICC. Probably that's why they set up the Gitmo tribunal the way they did. To set a shining example.

    The accident is an example for how important visual ID of a target is. An A-10 usually can do that, an AV-8B probably, too. F-15, F-16, F-18 are simply too fast. And when you use stand-off weapons you're just too far away to see what you're really hitting. The curse of relying on high-tech. And they you have an Alliance and the issue of communication.

    [ February 07, 2007, 01:19: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  6. Dinsdale Gems: 13/31
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    Erod's right on this. I don't see how it casts any doubt at all on what was apparently nothing but a terrible accident. Friendly fire casaulties are an unfortunate reality on the battlefield.
     
  7. Abomination Gems: 26/31
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    I have no idea even how anyone could comprehend America intentionally attacking an UN convoy. There are no advantages, the pilot would have to be one seriously nefarious individual and accidents DO happen.

    Certainly everyone (well, mostly everyone) mourns the loss of the UN forces and wishes such a thing never happened but it's a warzone. Friendly fire has been in every war known to man.

    The pilot made an error. He did not intend to kill those UN forces. Placing him on trial will do nothing constructive save bring some sense of vengence to the families of the people who were killed.
     
  8. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    It was an accident plain and simple.
     
  9. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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    If he followed procedures, he has nothing to fear from a trial. If he did not, he does.

    I don't see the problem.
     
  10. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Abo,
    Of course a fighter jock wants to kill what he's shooting at, get real. He only didn't know what he was hitting.
     
  11. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    When you go hunting in the US you have it drilled in your head that you should be sure of your target before firing. Surely stricter policies should apply to the military?

    Wonder what happened to this one.

    and

    The Iraqi's more or less had wheelie bins for tanks, so its a strange mistake to make.

    [ February 07, 2007, 09:51: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]
     
  12. Daie d'Malkin

    Daie d'Malkin Shoulda gone to Specsavers

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    'Don't worry, you're quite safe. You're not wearing COALITION uniforms!'

     
  13. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Well, cosidering how much the US rely on air power one has to say such incidents are pretty rare when compared the number of sorties flown, to allied troops that is.

    The aiming generously part applied to civvies is much more frequent, especially in urban combat. It may not be the intent, to miss or hit bystanders, but that's somewhat beside the point (literally) for those hit instead of or with the intended target. I mean, the Marines used artillery barrages in Fallujah. Not exactly a discriminate weapon. Just like airstrikes using ordnance like a 908kg Mk.84 bomb.

    Average hit probability of such a thing under perfect conditions is within 40 feet of programmed target. Blast and heat radius is 110 feet, fragmentation radius 3000 feet. That means anyone within a half mile of such a perfectly delivered munition would be at risk. As said, this assumes that all goes well and does not even allow for errors such as target location, weather, jamming, pilot, GPS, mapping, intelligence errors.

    'Surgical' is a very euphemistic term. Why you hear much less of that than of the Brits killed is because the Brits as allies have a lobby.
     
  14. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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  15. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    What I don't get is that the silhouette of the Scimitar is unique. Well, from the ground at least.

    Seems to me that the pilots believed to be in a free fire zone, where everything was supposed to be hostile, and the Brits were engaged as a 'target of opportunity'. It seems, that in a free fire zone the suspicion of hostility and fitting the general target pattern justifies an attack -- fire first, ask questions later. That's the whole point of a free fire zone, to eleminate the need for elaborate target identification.

    To work it calls for close coordination between ground forces and the air force. The blue on blues hitting allies are easily explained by the likely coordination and communication gaps. The A-10s had most likely never trained with the British. There probably were no established procedures, and no US air force compatible radio with the Brits.
    One thing I heared from a German naval officer serving in the Indian Ocean in a JOINT NATO-US task force was that he thought NATO would have made the US Navy standardise with NATO. Not true. NATO is just a small bit of the US armed forces world. The units he had to cooperate with were from the pacific and initially not NATO compatible. They eventually improvised a way around it. Means the US have at least two communication standards in their fleet. In Germany they just had to scuttle a project that was aimed on generating full interoperability between Army, Navy and Air Force for the hip 'JOINT' missions. It failed. Seems it is not at all easy.

    There was that old joke in the Army about the artillery: 'Artillery knows neither friend nor foe, only inviting targets!' I guess that goes to the flyboys doubly. Artillermen have less ego, too. Airheads think they're god. And probably the carrier pilots in the Navy are worse. The only thing still worse would then be an astronaut.

    EDIT: Good comment from the guadian:
    He's absolutely right. What the US government did afterwards is something else entirely./EDIT

    [ February 08, 2007, 12:42: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  16. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    Too many of these 'accidents' from American bombers for my liking. Anyone got figures on how many 'allied' soldiers have been killed by the Yanks fooking up? Too trigger happy, that's their problem, always has been.
     
  17. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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    OTOH, things are much better now than they were, say, in WWII.

    This time around, you don't get American ground pounders saying things like "if it flies, it dies" and shooting at anything in the air after the umpteenth bombing by 'friendly' aircraft.
     
  18. Sydax Gems: 19/31
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    @Darkstrider: the article I read was misleading. It is in Spanish and says almost what I wrote. My English isn't too good so I didn't read everything in the English link, so is my mistake for not dig more on the news.

    But, I still don't understand this 'US justice' for themselves. An US soldier can do whatever he likes around the world and he won't get a trial by, let's say, killing some innocent people, let's say, by mistake. In 2003 a tank blew the Palestinian Hotel killing an Ukranian journalist and a Spaniard cameraman. ( http://www.counterpunch.org/hollander01082004.html )
    US decide if their soldiers stand trial in the USA and can't be judged in other countries, but if John Doe from X country kills an American, US can ask for for John Doe to stand trial in America?
    I know I probably didn't express right, and I hope you get the idea.
     
  19. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I have to agree with others that this was a horrible accident. The pilots asked if their were friendlies in the area, they got a message back that there wasn't, and they attacked. Obviously, there was no intent to fire on allied vehicles. The one pilot was crying at the end for God's sake.
     
  20. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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