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The Two Towers (Finally!!) *spoilers*

Discussion in 'Whatnots' started by Falstaff, Dec 18, 2002.

  1. Herf Gems: 15/31
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    [​IMG] *Spoilers* (Hey, you shouldn't be reading this thread if you don't want spoilers!)

    I'm just back from the cinema and I'm extremely disgruntled. Firstly: The humour. That oh-so-painful humour, of which most of was centered on the dwarf. It was disgustingly sore to watch the dwarf being the butt of jokes left right and centre. From Gimli falling off his horse to his asking Aragorn to 'Toss me?' and 'Just don't tell the elf.' was horrible.

    Secondly, Legolas and Gimli keeping marks in battle of the enemies they've slaughtered, its just not elf like. Legolas is in sharp contrast to the rest of the elves in the movie. The other elves are all sorely serious about killing. They carry themselves with an air of distinction and they keep themselves in reserve. Whereas Legolas shouts across the battle-field how many Uruk-Hai he's managed to stab in the eye.

    Gollum, however, was portrayed amazingly well in this instalment. His character was deep and truly satisfying. Seeing him argue with himself was a breath of fresh air within the movie. For me, it was the only true character dialogue worth listening to.

    Theoden... Now that storyline was followed amazingly well and with superb effect. Right from his nephew being banished to his dead son, superb.

    Saying that, I managed to stay awake during this film... The film was good, far better than the first, but still a let down.

    My favourite scene would have to be the opening sequence... Gandalf fighting the Balrog whilst falling, it made me want to be able to slow it down so I could see everything that was happening. There just wasn't enough time to take it all in.

    Herf out.
     
  2. William Smit IV Gems: 2/31
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    A letdown...to you, maybe. Let's remember we each have our own universe here, and ours is totally right--within our boundaries, of course! Just don't act like your view is the ONE view--kind of like the One Ring. Can't rule them all, boys. Plus, I had to comment on this: "Secondly, Legolas and Gimli keeping marks in battle of the enemies they've slaughtered..."

    I stopped reading your argument at that point. If you've read the book, you should know why. I think the funniest part of the movie is actually AFTER it: getting to watch the uneducated make comments. Oh, that and exaggeration. I remember that scene where he shouted across the battle. Oh, wait, he was right in front of Gimli when he said that to him. Oh, right...

    [ December 20, 2002, 22:54: Message edited by: William Smit IV ]
     
  3. Nutrimat Gems: 12/31
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    Saw it yesterday. An amazing movie.

    SPOILER WARNING

    .

    Some of the highlights for me:
    Gollum - I didn't think they would do him justice, but my fears were unfounded. He looks, talks, and acts almost exactly as I pictured while reading the books. I actually felt sorry for him, more so in the beginning. Smeagols past will be shown in Return of the King, I can't wait to see that.
    The Ents - Again, this is something that I was anxious to see, because it would be so easy to make it look stupid and cheesy (Wizard of Oz). But the Ents were awesome. I loved it when they stormed Isengard and kicked Orc tail all over the place! It was cool to see that scene acted out, since in the books it was only described after the fact by Merry and Pippin. The extended edition of the movie will reportedly have more Ent scenes in it, and I can't wait to see these!
    The Return of Gandalf - It was cool how he was a little bit different when he came back. I wasn't sure if they would capture this in the movie, but his voice was a little different, and he looked a little bit different when he returned. Very nicely done.
    The landscape - New Zealand must be one of the most beautiful places on this planet. The visuals of the scenery were breathtaking.

    A few things I didn't like:
    The Gimli humor - Gimli was a noble and proud Drwarven warrior. In the Two Towers he came across as a bumbling idiot incapable of crossing a puddle of water without drowning. Very disappointing.
    Emomer banished - Why? WHY?
    The Ringwraith - exactly how did Faramir's men drive off this thing with ONE arrow to its flying beast? The Ringwraith's don't come across as fearsomw and terrifying as they were in the books because of stupid little things like this. I could see if it was peppered with arrows or something, but that it was driven off by ONE arrow was mind bogglingly stupid.
    Not reforging Narsil - In the Fellowship book, Aragorn had the sword reforged at Rivendell, and used it to great effect in the battle of Helm's Deep. I guess it will be shown in a more dramatic fashion in Return of the King.

    Some things that were expanded/changed from the book, but I really liked anyway:
    Expanded Wormtounge - In the Fellowship (book), someone mentions Theoden, and Wormtounge ONCE. Then when they show up at Theoden's place, they kick him out immediately. It's kind of hard to show this cinematically, since the audience doesn't know who this guy is or why he's being kicked out of Theoden's palace. So I'm glad they showed more of him, and built him up as a bad guy a little more. The "possession" of Theoden was a little over the top though.
    Elves in Helm's Deep - It was cool because it gives you more of a sense of "we're all in this together", rather than "This problem belongs to the race of men". It also gives you more of a sense of the Elves character, since they had to cut so much from the books out of necessity.
    Gandalf's fight with the Balrog - this is described by Gandalf in the book, but it's awesome to see it happening. I loved the Balrog from the first movie, and it was cool to go back and see what actually happened.
    Arwen - I believe the scenes with her were described, not in the trilogy, but in the appendix, or in the "Lost Tales" or "unfinished Tales" or whatever it was. Anyway, in the first movie, I was against Arwen's expanded role, but after thinking about it, to not show her too much during the movie is kind of awkward, given that she is a very important part of Aragorn's life, and thus one of his major motivations.

    Finally, the "counting game" between Gimli and Legolas was in the Two Towers book, so I don't have a problem with it.

    Overall, it was a great movie, even though it differed from the book quite a bit. Some of the events Tolkien described in his books would be really difficult to show cinematically, so I understand in most cases why they took a few liberties with it. For example, in the books, Saruman is only indirectly referenced (by Gandalf) up to the time he is defeated. The first time he is directly described in the books is when he is defeated by the Ents, and Gandalf and co. go in Orthanc to talk to him. In a movie, it's very difficult to have a villian that is entirely off screen until the end of the second movie. So PJ took a few liberties and showed him on screen quite a bit.

    Here's a Fellowhip movie question: Why was Gimli so anxious to go to the mines of Moria? In the book, his cousin Balin set out with a bunch of Dwarves to reclaim the mines from Durin's Bane (The Balrog), but never came back. If he was safe, even if he'd been defeated, he would have sent word to his kin. There wasn't much doubt that he was dead.
    Now, if you've never read the books, you'd get the impression that Balin had already been established as King of Moria, then was killed by the Balrog and the Goblins. But this doesn't make sense either, as Gandalf clearly knew about the Balrog (based on comments from both Gandalf and Saruman during the movie). So why wouldn't he tell Gimli about it? The Dwarves line (about Balin giving them a "royal welcome" and "rrrripe meat off the bone") did not make any sense no matter how you look at it. This is the only major gripe I have with the Fellowship.

    [ December 20, 2002, 23:57: Message edited by: Nutrimat ]
     
  4. Nobleman Gems: 27/31
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    [​IMG] I saw it just now. I never read the books--
    I'll leave the scenario remarks out. And Gandalf. Both are foundations to the story. Couldn't really work without the scenario nore without Tolkien the Conjurer.. *ehem* yeah right... I mean Gandalf the Conjurer, whose actor does really well.

    My Arguable review:
    The Gollum character was extremely well done. I actually looked forward to each scene with him. As noted above: Give Gollum a freaking Oscar. Just don't have too many shiny rings near him at the awards.

    I learned that heroes are certainly heroes. There is no end to their more or less stunning deeds. well It's Adventure. Stuff like this happends all the time I guess. I couldn't help but smile a bit though when Aragon and the king's knights plunder through the masses of the Urug-NastyNasties without loosing a single horse. Real Nasty. Well Its not that the Star Wars Stormtroopers are any more nasty... Thats The stuff of Legends, right Boo?

    I think its fair that Legolas and Gimli competes at everything. They got this cool Brother Vs. Brother thing goin' Afterall this is Jackon's version. Legolas has grown a little taint of Dwarven kin during their travels together. We could call his mentality Quarter Dwelf. Heck he has even grown a slight beard in one of the closeups...

    Now we are at it
    I think Gimli is hilarious( and still quite lethal with the axe of his). Be grumpy people. Shed your poisonous tongues. Ruin your day. I don't care. Tolkien Doesn't care. Tolkien is dead. This is Jackson's Gimli and Legolas. Get it Lazer brains? :p Apparently not.
    If I hear one more argument, which bases its facts solely on one statement. That this is in fact different in the the books; Then I suggest you to go out and eat some mushrooms in the forrest. Preferably red. And then tell me what is real and what is not.

    All the Elf stuff was pretty confusing; As if someone had worked pretty roughly with a pair of budget scissors at random places in those elf scenes. Its all culminating with the elves suddenly joining in to battle, from out of nowhere. The King summed it up pretty well in his line. How Can this be? Well King T. You're not the only puzzled dude.

    ****
    PS. Try and read and understand my post, as you promised yourself in Sorcerer's sundries. If your arguments differ from mine, and are reasonable; I'll of course appreciate them. :)

    PPS. Ragusa you are always angry. The numbers of :flaming: and other weird smilies in your posts, equals its spammaing ratio. :shake:

    PPPS. Those Ents Rock and Gimli Dwarfs Jerry Seinfeld in Stand up comedy... Puns Intended.I hope you enjoyed my review. Cheers.

    [ December 21, 2002, 03:40: Message edited by: Nobleman ]
     
  5. NoYur_Role Gems: 4/31
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    Just got back from seeing it. Man I tell you this movie is something else. Gangs of New York? you say... (with all very due respect to Big Martin S.) In the words of Sgt. Hartman "You've gotta be ****tin' me Joker!!!" The Two Towers is in a league of its own.

    The open scene between Gandalf and the Balrog already paid for price of admission. Just wish I could see Gandalf pepper him with a few more spells before polishing the Balrog off, but that's nitpicking.

    If Mr. Serkis doesn't get a Oscar Nomination...call the police.

    The Battle of Helm's Deep was masterfully done. You actualy feel lost in the chaos.

    The Gimli humor didn't bother me at all. Some of the jokes were actually quite funny. "You should have picked a better spot!!!"

    All in all, this movie was wow, wow, WOW!!!
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Sorry all, but this Tolkien fan was very annoyed by the movie. The book spent one chapter on the battle of Helm's deep, but it was the bloody centerpiece of the film. The dwarf humor was fine to a point, but I gave up with the "toss me" comment. The way they did the ents just sucked. Come on -- "you go your own way, this isn't our war," but then, oh, look they took out some trees, it's our war now -- really doesn't fly. I missed the development of the ents and the stories and think that they could have easily cut one of the multitude of scenes they added out of thin air to put something about the ents in there. I just wonder if they're even going to include the aftermath at Isengard and the Palantir in the third movie or if it will get swept under the rug.

    The whole bit with Faramir was so wrong it's not funny -- he is supposed to be a throwback to the noble days of Gondor, unlike his brother, and would never take Frodo to Gondor. That whole scene was completely unnecessary.

    Finally, loved the Gollum work, but he looked and sounded way too much like Peter Lorre for my liking -- although his argument with himself was the most touching part of the movie.

    My wife was ready to walk out of it because she found it so boring and I had to agree with her a bit. All in all, I was sadly disappointed.
     
  7. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    [​IMG] Not always Noble, still in this particular case. Doubtless, where LOTR part-I was a slap in the face of every righteous Tolkien fanatic, part-II will be a kick in the stomach ...
     
  8. Register Gems: 29/31
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    the movie was great becouse:

    1. Gimlis bad but extremely funny jokes - "You shold have picked a better spot" LOL

    2. Legolas for not being the stereotype elf. If you spent 24/7 with a dwarf and a human you changes in your way a little.

    3. Gollum becouse he was well done.

    4. The swamp of the dead: Never and i say NEVER have something been mor terrifying on a movie. I dunno why, but i was more "scared" there than in any other movie or tv show that i have ever seen.

    5. The orcs, i dunno their real names but they where good made. Saruman can be happy. :)

    6. The battle in Helms deep was the greatest movie-battle caought on screen ever. And i have seen wuite a few.

    7. Boromirs brother. He was a better chracter than Boromir.

    8. This is one of two(2) movies that are better than number one in the series. The other one is Die Hard 2.

    9. The Entis. I never thought tree-people could be so well made. Great battle too.

    FYI i have never read the books.
     
  9. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ivanji, the books are even better.
    Faramir is wiser ('better') in the books, too.

    Gimli: Toss me, but don't tell the elf!

    I'll probably see this movie an other 4/5 times before I buy it...
     
  10. Falstaff

    Falstaff Sleep is for the Weak of Will Veteran

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    To all of you negative posters:

    I am an ultimate Tolkien fan.
    One of my professors is a leading Tolkien scholar (Joe Christopher).

    We got over it.

    So should you.
     
  11. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] I agree that the books are far better...But the visuals in the movies have been fantastic!

    I think Gollum should get an Oscar for best supporting actor!!! I don't care if he's cg or not, he did the best acting in the movie!

    Things that bothered me in TTT:

    Where the HELL is Narsil/Anduril?!?!?!? Although I guess they set it up for the Return of the King...Arwen will show up with it to support her man!

    Helm's Deep - although the movie made it pretty well, I was looking forward to seeing the forest "show up" during the battle!

    Osgiliath - Why bring Frodo back to there...just to let him go? It seemed odd, especially since Faramir didn't warn Frodo of the danger of Gollum's choice of paths...

    Faramir - He waaay too much of a tool! I don't understand why they decided to make him so mean.

    Oliphants - Fantastic! Freaking fantastic!

    Eowyn - whiny girl? I was hoping to see a little of the shield maiden...She better step it up in RotK!

    Just a few observations...
     
  12. Yerril Gems: 22/31
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    Good: Gollum's argument - great little gopher trick with the camera angles.

    Bad: Legolas surfing on a shield.

    [ December 22, 2002, 00:25: Message edited by: Sir Yerril of Morningmist ]
     
  13. Register Gems: 29/31
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    the scene where legolas was surfing on the shield was the thing in the commercial that made me want to see it... it was great...
     
  14. Jesper898 Gems: 21/31
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    Just watched it today.
    It is the coolest movie i have ever seen (yeah even better than Braveheart :D )
    I watched FOTR before i went to see it, and that made it a lot more fun :D
     
  15. Foradasthar Gems: 21/31
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    Bad things first:

    Saruman was weak. His voice was of a desperate old man, his expressions and way of general behaviour was unsure and nervous, and the atmosphere that all gave off was truly a disappointment. As in the first movie, he should have been portrayed as an extremely powerful figure. Cunning and dangerous, charismatic and strong in mind. His voice should have been enhanced "magically" in many of the scenes, and he should have acted more the way a noble ruler would, than this nervous peasant he was. Saruman was so miserably done in this movie that I actually started doubting Christopher Lee's acting skills.

    Although I had nothing against Arwen's expanded role in FoTR, I have to admit that all the dreaming of her in this one went a bit too far. I got completely drawn out of my in-movie immersion when Aragorn fell over the cliff with the worg and suddenly some lousy orc gets the role of maliciously telling the others of what happened.

    Also, I realise this is more due to the contents of book 1 and book 2 than any failure in making the movie, but the characters were far too shallow in this one. Almost as if FoTR was an epic story of a huge event begin to unfold, and TT was a part of a tv-series that had something to do with the same story. Almost, not quite. But a nagging feeling in the back of my head that I have yet to recognize tells me that something was missing. That the movie was not all it should have been.

    Good things last:

    The effects were amazing. Even though you could see that Gollum and Treebeard were computer-effects, you couldn't see them in the way you've been able to in every other movie before this. It was more of a "feeling" that this is not genuine that actually being able to *see* what was wrong with the picture. The cinematic trailers were lousy compared to the true effects of the movies. Both Gollum, Treebeard and of course Balrog were incredible, state of the art surpassing all other suchlike effects that have yet been seen in any movies. Not once did I see even nearly the kind of ugly computerized troll -effect that was in FoTR.

    The battles were incredible. Truly, history was remade with this movie. For never has any battle been as beautiful a sight to behold, nor as powerful emotionally. Worg raiders, Helm's Deep and the ent's attack on Isengard were beyond anything I might have expected before. And I did expect pretty damn much I tell you.

    As for Gimli's comedy release role, I really can't understand why people keep whining about it. He was nowhere near a useless hindrance with the only purpose of being a subjected to mockery and cruel humour. He was a dwarf! Dwarves are supposed to be fun in the way Gimli was. They are not fast, or dexterious, or good long-distance travelers. Or riders. And he did a fine job in the movie. Supported both Aragorn and Legolas when they needed it, and never let his spirits down no matter what the circumstances. And as for "useless" or being a "hindrance"? He killed probably the greatest amounts of orcs in the battle of the Helm's Deep single-handedly with his axe. A fact further proven by the competition he and Legolas had in the books, where Gimli beat Legolas' bodycount by 1. His total being something around 44! I thought that "I sure picked the right spot!" and "Toss me!" was absolutely ingenious! And when he screamed to Legolas of his "2 already" and got the "I've got 17" for answer and climbed on the walls just so he could whack orcs from both sides (there were stairs raised on both sides in front of him) counting "three! four! five! six!", I almost fell out of my chair what with wiping the tears off of my face. This part was one of the things in the books that I waited most to see in the movies, and I am more pleased than I still think possible of the result. It's a classical scene sure to be portrayed by many for decades to come. Even though this attitude of dwarves (fearless and anxious to kill whatever evil threatens them, especially the hated and loved orcs) is already old in games and books, you must not forget that Tolkien was the one who first put it on paper, for others to learn of.

    And truly, the visuals were amazing. The landscapes that you could see tens or even hundreds of kilometers to every direction were so incredibly real it was hard to believe you could find such a place in this planet. New Zealand was indeed the right choice for filming this movie. There is no sense of the normal "men have spoiled this ground" in it. As if all of the lands were from thousands or tens of thousands of years away in our past.

    Overall:

    I liked this one. I liked FoTR more because of the depth of the plot there. But there is no doubt as to wether this was a part of the same success that was FoTR. I'm expecting much indeed of the 4h Extended DVD that will come out of this one. And now my belief on wether or not the last part will be worth anything is stronger than ever before. What with the deepness of plot, characters and locations in the first movie. The incredible scenery, special effects and tasty battles of the second. I can see that the last one fully has the potential to become the greatest masterpiece ever created. It might not, but there is a whole lot of reason to hope that it does. I'm proud to be alive when for 10-20 years of lame undeveloping filmindustry, an epic equivalent or even the better of Starwars is being created.

    Never thought I would feel this way of any movie or a game, but now I do.
     
  16. Shadowcouncil Gems: 29/31
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    Same as part 1: The characters are great, it all looks great too. A pity that the story is changed on some parts, but well... I still have the same opinion:

    The movies rock, except for the story but what the hell, that's where I have the book for!
     
  17. Quint Gems: 8/31
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    The movie was excellent. Better than the first part. Truly grandiose.

    Remember guys, that is just part of "the movie". It shouldn't be judged as a movie in itself, just as you wouldn't even think of only reading and judging book 2 by itself. This is just the "action" part of the trilogy, and as such the action it is extremely well done.

    Gimli's humorous phrase came just at the right spot for me. There you are with more than 10,000 orcs attacking a mere 300 men, and they're about to break through the fortress' gates - maximum tension - and this hilarious "toss me" comes in to release the tension build up and prepare you for yet another build up to end the battle. If someone didn't laugh at that point, it could perhaps mean they were'nt really immersed (and tense) at all, but rather observing, comparing and judging, which would be a shame and even a waste I think. (although I can understand some people couldn't help but compare every detail with the book - you should go and see it again with a more open mind).

    I greatly enjoyed it. And given the high standard that has been set in this first attempt at putting this epic fantasy on film, I look forward to the next version of LoTR in a few years. :)
     
  18. Atreides Gems: 7/31
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    Just saw the Two Towers yesterday and have formulated my opinion:
    I love the movie, and will buy it on DVD (extended if they release one) but I think that Fellowship was better.
    I'm not a purest when you talk LoTR, I've learned that sort of mindset is a hinderence when you go watch a film or play a game based off a film/book or anything else. However, my only gripe was Faramir and the way he was portrayed, that's it! nothing else except that the beginning felt a bit rushed but that's minor and not worrying over.
    I can't wait for it to come out on DVD!
     
  19. Rhythm Gems: 11/31
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    Great movie, IMHO. What can I say that the others haven't? Well, Jackson's liberties were a welcome change to the books (Hell, if everything was exactly the same as the book you might as well not watch the movie). Gimli provided some much needed humour though I wished it was distributed a bit evenly between the characters rather than Gimli alone.

    Just one particular annoying gripe: Helm's Deep. I'll admit, the battle was freaking amazing but the way they made Aragorn and Co seemingly invincible (especially in the horse riding scene) is extremely silly. Come on, thousands of Uruk-Hai and not one of them were able to knock the riders off? And the I-taught-Tony-Hawk-how-to-grind-move by Legolas is cool, but cheesy. Lastly, I wonder if anybody else is confused where Gandalf and Eomer were able to find such a large number of reinforcements? AFAIK, there weren't that many of the Rohirrim to start with, and the Dunedain isn't in this movie.
     
  20. aegron Gems: 8/31
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    I liked it but I hated the way they sacrificed gimli to put some humour into the movie!

    by the way: The beard joke was stolen from Pratchet or am I mistaken?
     
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