Spears and halberds

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When trying out and comparing different weapons on my way through BG-2 SoA to ToB
I found something that really surprised me:

When I compared two-handed-swords, halberds and spears I found halberds to have a better initiative than 2-hd-swords, making them a little more attractive in my eyes. Anyway, imo the really surprising thing is that spears, when compared to halberds, are way less atractive:

While beeing lighter and dealing out less damage I expectet them to have a lower initiative than halberds - they don't have. So why , unless you're a druid, should you waste a slot for them?
I think that spears are one of the forgotten weapon classes in BG-2 SoA, just like clubs and (in SoA) bastard swords. Any opinions ?

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited September 18, 2001).]

 

Spears have long been my favourite two-handed weapon. I've never been too concerned with weapon speed, just damage output, really.

SPOILER:

The Spear +3, Impaler (found in the Sahuagin city) does 1D6+3+10 damage. That's a pretty serious amount of carnage. It's speed factor is 3, too.

ToB SPOILER:

**EDIT**
Sorry, but we *do* have a ToB forum, and there are never ToB spoilers allowed in the SoA forum.

**END EDIT**
+3 Spears can also be found quite early in the game (there are a couple in the house from which you get the Celestial Fury). The only major strike I can think of against spears is that they inflict piercing damage, which I believe to be the most commonly resisted (i.e. inflicts partial damage the most often, eg. against Kua Toans, undead, etc).

[This message has been edited by Darien Noella (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

I don't think I've ever used a spear in BG2. I usually have Jaheira give that Impaler spear a look, since it certainly does seem like a fearsome weapon, but she gets like triple the amount of attacks if you give her Belm in her off hand, so it's never worth it.

I do use clubs with her regularly, though. I often break my "like weapons" rule to have her wielding Blackblood and Belm. I usually think characters look stupid wielding one sword and one bashing weapon, but that particular club and scimitar look fairly cool together, and I can really visualize this pissed-off druid with a piece of wood in one hand and a hand sickle in the other. (-:

 

I have most (if not all) my non-casters dual wielding, too. Other than in the case of the Holy Avenger, the Silver Sword, or perhaps (for the sake of entertainment) Lilarcor, I only really use two-handed weapons if I want to keep a ranged weapon equipped (shuffling weapons at the beginning of a battle really annoys me).

Still, as two handed weapons go, it's hard to match the damage output on Spear +3, Impaler. As a side note, the +10 on the Impaler is added separately, so if you score a crit, it won't be doubled

Back to the topic of weapon speed, does anyone else find it a bit odd that halberds have a better weapon speed than two-handed swords? I mean, sure, two-handed swords are big, but have you seen a halberd? They're basically pikes with a mass of blades and hooks on top of them... they look pretty unwieldy...

 

You're weilding the stick part, not the blade. If you swing it hard, the momentum would probably speed it up immensely and carry is straight through the enemy. (Mwa ha ha). Two-handed swords *would* be heavier than halberds, since halberds take up about the same amount of space as a two-handed-sword (if you packed it all together, that is), but the metal part is only the blade of the halberd as opposed to the entire thing for the two-handed sword. Besides.... Practice makes perfect.

 

The Impaler is one of my favourite weapons, bot other than that, I can't see very many good spears, though there's a +4 one somewhere, I think.

And I don't really care about the speed factor, so I usually don't look at it. But I agree that spears should be faster than halberds.

 

The spear you can buy in Ust Natha is pretty ok (+4), but in general, the halberds usually have more attributes. It's sad actually.
I'd say the Impaler wouldn't match Dragon's Breath or the Wave.

A halberd compared to a spear, when thinking on initiative, I believe it would take longer time making a thrust with a spear than chop at someone with a halberd. It's easier to move a halberds destination as you can decide left or right when starting swinging down (assuming you don't thrust with it). The spear only has a limited radius if you're going to hit because of it's movement forward.

And we got a ToB forum for ToB spoilers!

We don't have ToB in here and we don't want it in here either!!!



[This message has been edited by Lokken (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

Tiamat:

I know you wield the stick part, and I agree that a two-handed sword would weigh more, as it's constructed entirely out of steel, whereas a halberd it mostly wood. But the weight of a two-handed sword is fairly evenly distributed along it's length, and it has a reasonably weighty handle to balance it a bit. An average halberd pole is 8 feet long. Sure, there's less metal, but it's all on the end of the stick, making it kind of hard to wave around

 

Not really. Take a broom and attach something heavy to the top. Then swing it, and watch as the top moves around at amazing speed, carrying you with it....

 

Hehe, I think I'll leave the weighted-broom-waving to you. After thinking about it more, you're probably right... although the halberds depicted in BGII have oversized blades, in my opinion. Still, they both rate pretty highly on my "hard to swing about (particularly without hurting yourself)" scale.

ps what's the command for the big cheesy grin, again?

 

I like cheesy grins. ... don't get me started. I didn't say they're that easy to use.... Just easy to injure people with (not excluding yourself).

 

I've always favoured halberds and spears for 'back line' fighters, especially fighter mages. The specialisation with them combined with the range, allowing a better armoured party member to cover them is always useful to me. The weapon speed has never bothered me as there's always quicker weapons being used by the toe to toe combatants.

 

Actually, I would expect a halberd to have a better speed than a 2H sword. Halberds are a fulcrum weapon, meaning they are meant to balance on a point a little less than halfway out and move very quickly. In fact, it would be more similar to a quarterstaff, which can move very fast.

I would expect spears to be faster too, but I guess that depends on the type of spear. Spears used in the East (like Shao lin) are very fast, but if I were using one, I would be: thrust...retrieve...thrust...retrieve.

Besides, I doubt Black Isle took all their weapons, put them up on a board, and ranked them by speed. I'm sure each programmer assigned a speed that seemed to make sense independent of the relative numbers.

 

Yes, I don't think they consulted with each other when making the weapons and their calculations. But initiative doesn't really matter, except for a backstabbing thief or a high-AC kensai (that is, if they need to hit quick and get their butts out of there). Love those smileys....

[This message has been edited by Tiamat (edited September 18, 2001).]

 

Here are my favs from each type of weapon.
Halberd +4: Wave
Forged in antiquity by a cult devoted to the goddess Umberlee, this weapon of vengeance was designed to aid the cult's champion in retrieving a holy artifact from the fire giants of the Storm Horn Mountains. That was a lot of hope to place in one champion, and unfortunately the Wave had been lost ever since.

STATISTICS:

Combat Abilities:
15% chance of draining victim of water (+15 damage)
Slays Fire Elementals, Efreet, Salamaders (no save)
THAC0: +4 bonus
Damage: 1D10+4
Damage type: piercing
Weight: 12
Speed Factor: 5
Proficiency Type: Halberd
Type: 2-handed
Requires: 13 Strength
Not Usable By:
Monk
Druid
Cleric
Mage
Thief

and for the spear:

Spear +3, Impaler
The Impaler has a palpable aura of magic that hints at the vicious nature of the weapon and why it has been a favorite of several powerful orc chieftains in the past. When a victim is struck they are, as one would guess, very nearly impaled, run through as the massive enchantment does its dirty work.

STATISTICS

THAC0: +3 bonus
Damage: 1D6 +3, +10 piercing damage
Damage type: piercing
Weight: 3
Speed Factor: 3
Proficiency Type: Spear
Type: 2-handed
Requires: 5 Strength
Not Usable By:
Cleric
Mage
Thief

I love these te of weapons because they just look so cool on the characters! Ok so the sword looks noble but when you have a f***ing great big halberd in your hands it just makes you look unbeatable!

 

Ahh...Halberds...Reminds me of my very first p'n'p Ad&d character, who was lovingly named Enthasius. Hence the fact thats my internet id, you may see this name on some other sites, though not too many...I know where my aliances are placed.

 

Lokken:

Don't get angry with me for a ToB spoiler - I did warn you... and it is relevant in SoA, as you'll probably want to develop your spear proficiency then.

Auger:

Are you sure they are meant to balance about halfway down? I don't see how that's possible, given the weight of the wood is nothing compared to the weight of the head, and there is no counterweight on the other end of the halberd. Also, as I said earlier, the average halberd was 8 feet long (some were 9+ feet), and that was when average male height was somewhere around the 5 foot mark (so, today's halberd would be even bigger, I'd expect). They are REALLY long weapons (commonly used by guards because they could do damage without taking them too close to the action).

[This message has been edited by Argyle (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

Ever here of choking up(baseball)that way you could use the other end like a quarterstaff.

 

Actually, no... I've no idea what "choking up" is. No baseball in my country

 

Sorry must be my american arrogance. Do you understand the quarterstaff idea.