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Soldier attacked with meat cleavers and knives in Woolwich

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Barmy Army, May 22, 2013.

  1. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ya think?!

    FUBAR.
     
  3. Arctic Daishi Gems: 6/31
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    Clearly we need to ban meat cleavers.
     
  4. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    What I don't understand is why there looks to be a large number of people around and NONE OF THEM ARE DOING ANYTHING. Come on, 20 people can take down 2 people with knives.
     
  5. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It takes people of courage....
     
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  6. Gaear

    Gaear ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful

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    Not only that, they're standing there videotaping the guy making his stupid statement while the victim is lying there dead or dying in the background.
     
  7. Old One

    Old One The Old Warrior ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    A young man serving his country just walking down the street run over by a car then hacked at with cleavers? The police shooter showed great restraint not putting both men down on the spot. Sorry, seemed she did. Good for her. I misread a part of the story.
     
  8. Arkite

    Arkite Crash or crash through Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I thought you might have come to the conclusion that wow, when people don't have access to guns, it's a lot harder to kill somebody (first they had to be sure they outnumbered him, then because they still weren't confident about beating him in a fight, ran him over in a car, got out of their car and attacked him at close range with knives, then because it takes longer to kill somebody with knives than a gun, they were witnessed, they were covered in the evidence of their crime, a crowd had gathered, and the attackers realised it'd be useless to try and escape, and because their strategy of run a person over with a car then finish him off with knives was only possible for 1 attack, they couldn't fight back against the cops, so they were taken alive and can be interrogated), when if they'd had access to guns they could have just done a driveby, then another, and another, and another.
     
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  9. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    They shot to injure, the killers are in hospital.

    Can we not turn this into another bloody gun debate.
     
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  10. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Not while Arctic is trolling its way across the boards :rolleyes:
     
  11. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    good post Arkite.

    I would also add that a cleaver is a mundane functional item, they aren't even that sharp, its their weight that makes them useful, most butchers use the back of the blade to knock down on sharper knives to get a much better cleaner cut through joints. Guns have 1 use, killing things.
    This attack was meant to be brutal and shocking not effective an 8inch chefs knife would have been far more lethal.

    I wonder if any anti games activists will blame games for this as this attack bears striking similarities to a scene from Mafia 2.
     
  12. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I'm not going to turn this in to a gun control debate. I have a different spin. This is a result of people being told for years to rely on their government. There are two types of people now and it is largely dependent on where you live and how you are raised to determine which you are. In a crisis your instinct is either to call and wait for the authorities or to put yourself in danger and jump in to action.

    Courage may have a part in this decision making process, but I think a larger part of it is if you have been raised to be self reliant or not.
     
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  13. Arkite

    Arkite Crash or crash through Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It's not that simple.

    The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases in which individuals do not offer help to a victim. The probability of help is inversely related to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help.
     
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  14. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Arkite and Snook both get it right, from different perspectives.

    I am 48 and not in good physical shape. Also, the only "weapon" I carry is a Swiss Army knife (7.0 cm folding blade - the maximum allowed by Danish law). I would stand zero chance against a couple of young, well-trained hoodlums with meat cleavers.

    Most likely result: I would call for help, then wait for the authorities to arrive, or somebody else to jump in and risk their lives, then (perhaps, depending on a careful evaluation of the chances) try to assist them. It's the old story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody ... and Nobody!

    EDIT: Arkite's post reminded me of something I heard of back when I was in school, so the details are sketchy. But - a group of scientists had a "victim" lie down in the road and pretend to be unconscious. They did the experiment in a large city and a small village. In the city, people would walk around the "victim", step over him, and generally ignore him. In the village, the first passer-by would examine the "victim" and try to offer assistance.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2013
  15. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    After seeing the disgusting comments people have made of Facebook I felt compelled to post my experience of immigrants and and the EDL on there:

    I make no secret of the fact that I disagree with open door immigration but it's not because I don't like 'foreigners', it's because I am concerned that, right now, England doesn't have the means to support the people already living here.

    That's it really. These EDL people are hiding their bigotry behind a campaign 'for the good of the country'. They have no idea what the good of the country actually is!
     
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  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    If anyone actually did try to "help", I'd question their sanity... going against two guys with such weapons who've just succeeded in killing a soldier? How could you possibly expect the outcome to be any different than what happened to the unfortunate soldier, unless you had some kind of special combat training and/or were armed yourself?

    Bravery is great, but assessing the situation first makes the difference between an act of bravery or sheer insanity in my view. Sure, you could blame the bystanders if this was a bunch of military guys outside an outpost. But geez, this was a bunch of shocked civilians. Calling for help and making sure that they had plenty of footage of the perps in case they escaped is just about the most useful thing that they could have done.

    As for how people react, in such cases I expect most would assume the violence is gang-related (I doubt anyone knew what was actually happening as it was happening) - would you get in the middle of a gang fight?
     
  17. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    people don't generally like risking getting hurt, even if in a group of 10 men against a guy with 2 bullets most people will not risk being one of the 2 who will be shot. look at 9/11 the planes had close to 100 passengers against 5 men armed with primitive weapons 3 out of 4 waited and hoped for the best
     
  18. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    And on the fourth plane the people only fought back because they knew they would die if they didn't try. They had heard of the other planes being used as suicide bombs.
     
  19. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    Exactly.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 3 minutes and 43 seconds later... ----------

    You are correct, but I think that is the point. For instance if this happened in the US and in particular in a state that allowed concealed carry is there any doubt that one of these "shocked citizens" would have drawn and fired?
     
  20. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    In the immortal words of Marsellus Wallace, the police should..."call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' niggers, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass."
     
    The Great Snook likes this.
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