Socratic questioning session #3

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What is peace?

 

What is peace? peace is the bliss of non-being, of apperceptive nothingness... or so I am led to believe.

But for me, peace is the satisfaction that things are good, that there is nothing left that you desire, even if it lasts only an instant, and that despite all of the tumultuous force to the contrary, that what is happening is right.

Peace is Harmonious Balance.

It is union of soul -of psyche- with spirit, the inner feeling that despite whatever turmoil may continue that now at least, those things you love are unnaffected.

It is the True essence of Life.

Edit- Hahaha, how foolish of me, it is *one* of those, For with only peace how would we grow? There is a dualism in life that is unmistakeable: Peace is the Ring Cosmos, always at a rotating tangent to the other, the Ring Chaos, which keep each other in check and in motion, without one, the other would lose control, would dissipate.

In these terms peace is what allows change to have meaning, what gives purpose and productivity, or rather, specific direction to growth, but I do not want to wander *too* far off topic.

[ October 03, 2003, 14:09: Message edited by: Manus ]

 

I would agree that peace is cosmos, which can be translated to order.

 

so you say that peace is order, where all is balanced, without conflict?

 

Without meaning to be flip, I'd say that peace is the absence of conflict. Having all of one's material wants satisfied is simply contentment. Even if some of those wants have not been fulfilled, must that lead to conflict? I don't think so. In many cases, the pursuit of a goal is as enjoyable as reaching it.

Since I've defined peace by using a new term, I'd best define that term. "Conflict" is a struggle between competing goals. Do I want chocolate mousse or lemon pie for dessert? Should my son go to public school or private? Should Iraq have a Constitution in place before their election, or not?

Conflicts can be of any scope, and making a decision doesn't necessarily end the conflict. That choice can be regretted, or can open up a new avenue with its own opportunities for conflict.

Therefore, if peace is the absence of conflict, peace too can happen on any scale.

Why do "order" and "chaos" have to enter into things? A mosh pit is chaotic but is it in conflict? A chess board is orderly but is also a highly stylized form of conflict.

[ October 03, 2003, 16:34: Message edited by: Rallymama ]

 

I agree with your definition of peace as the absence of conflict on an external scale, but think I should clarify that I in no way reffered to the satisfaction of material want.

What I mean is the *absence* of *any* material want whatsoever, coupled with the fulfilment of inner desires (by this I mean the satisfaction of strength of character) which leads to inner peace - the greater of the two.

Edit- In reply to your recent query on order and chaos; Order is the absence of conflict, chaos it's extreme - conflict without direction or aim.

I would argue that a mosh pit is not always chaotic, all participants are there for a certain purpose, with certain aims, yet it is not at peace either for these purposes may differ drastically, and whenever emotion (such as anger, or the need for entertainment) are introduced each participant has left a status of peace, and the collective whole, therefore, while united, is at odds both with itself, and with those things not of itself - it is in conflict.

A chessboard may be arrayed in an orderly fashion, yet it is not of Order, for things change and are not accounted for. For it to be in balance, peace, though changes may occur, each change is attributed for with another so that the system as a whole remains the same, not the whittling down of pieces until one side remains while the other does not.

Order and Chaos are indeed two sides of the same coin, and despite that when looked at closely a thing may seem in chaos, to remove ones view to a further point the true balance is observed, while at a greater distance the indecipherable field of chaos returns. Thus it is repeated endlessly in the interplay that is necessary for the change and stability of growth.

In these terms, peace is the stabilising force to provide advancement via chaos, or the direction in which the force of chaos directs.

[ October 03, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Manus ]

 

I could say that peace is the absence of thought

 

So you claim there are still conflicts in peace?

 

Actually, Morgoth, I would say that SLEEP is the absence of (conscious) thought!

Manus, I would remove the word "conflict" from your definitions of Order and Chaos. I agree that Chaos has no purpose or aim, but I don't see that "conflict" has to be part of it - maybe it's a highly likely side effect, but not a necessary element.

To me, Order implies something different (especially since I've already used your definition as *my* definition for Peace ). I see Order as being a condition wherein everything is governed by a rigid set of rules. This does not preclude change from an orderly system (as implied by your following paragraph), but simply requires that changes happen in accordance with the specified rules. To imply that Order is necessary for Peace and Change preculdes Order leads to the conclusion that there can never be peace because there will always be change.

I prefer to think that satisfaction of inner desires means that one can be a peace with the changes happening around oneself.

Welcome to the BoM, Manus!

 

I meant the greek word kosmos

Cos"mos\ (k[o^]z"m[o^]s), n. [NL., fr. Gr. ko`smos order, harmony, the world (from its perfect order and arrangement); akin to Skr. [,c]ad to distinguish one's self.] 1. The universe or universality of created things; -- so called from the order and harmony displayed in it.

like so.

So I what meant earlier by order is that which is harmonious, which can be percieved as order (at least in my mind).

 

Perhaps a further description of my definitions is required - this seems to be my greatest failure of late.

Chaos as ultimately change without direction, conflict the harbringer of that change - for without conflict there would be no reason for that change, and the creation of such conflict a change in itself.

A conflict, change in which balance is disturbed, or specifically, the potential for that change, that is, change that may indeed follow an orderly rule, but which does not lead to Order, the cessation of that change, and the reaction to it.

I agree with your description of order as an orderly system, or progression of changes, but this definition of Order is not what I meant.

Order here was substitued for the Ring Cosmos, that balance of stability which I used to describe peace - which we are agreed excludes conflict, and is but a reflection of what we know as inner peace, experienced by the totality of existence, or some part thereof.

Thus there is Order when balance is assumed, and not only balance, for that could be caused by two or more changes in opposite directions, which both have the possibilty of further change, and thus are vehicles for conflict. I can think of no better word than that which Lokken has used to describe this universality of created things, the Kosmos, than Harmonious.

Here the dilineation of Peace and peaceful is also discovered, peaceful being balance with possible orderly changes, Peace the cessation of such change, being absolute Order.

Which, I agree, is next to impossible externally, and rightly so, for we must all surely agree that some form of change is necessary -leaving inner peace as the only true form of Peace, as opposed to peaceful times.

Like was said, the acceptance of external change, and ones removal of self from it - immutable to outside influences, though the question of what is outside oneself becomes increasingly debatable.

 

Given the definitions above, I must say that I prefer "Peacefulness" to true "Peace." Order without change seems so stagnant. Would there no longer be a need for growth? If that is so, Peace is attainable only through death.

 

Isn't peace them things ya make split peace soup outta?

 

But there are still conflicts in peace right?

 

there isn't anything that conflict with peace.

 

Peace is the absence of conflict, it is the anti-life, non-existence..

Edit:
I changed death to non-existence, death is a species of the living. A part of chaos

[ October 05, 2003, 00:42: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Is there? There is no violence, but what of political, or moral conflicts/struggle?