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Snowden Reveals US Spies On EU

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Chandos the Red, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    The only part in his post I find outrageous is the boycotting and pirating part. Boycotting something you'll get for free without consequences is ridiculously easy and could be called more of a justification for a convenience than a serious ethical stance.

    Otherwise I think most people in Europe agree that Guantanamo is a travesty of justice and find it somewhat incomprehensible that a country that supposedly has high regard for human rights keeps people imprisoned without a trial on foreign soil and in secret prisons or has a man in charge with powers to pretty much drone strike anyone at will without any legal consequences. I also find it worrying how in the US civil liberties have taken a step back with the Patriot Act and other laws that were enacted post 9/11.

    Regarding leaks and Snowden. Leaks can be a good thing. It is the job of responsible journalists to obtain leaks of the government's doing so that they don't undermine the rights of citizen and democracy. Transparency of government is a key element in the survival of democracy. There are basically two sort of leaks I can't accept. a) Leaks that basically count as spying for a foreign entity or b) leaks that put lives at risk. The rest are more acceptable in my opinion. I do, however, think that the leaker is to face legal consequences if found out. He should lose his job and pay for potential damages but unless one of the above can be proven I think a 20 year prison term or something is just ridiculous. Once found out the damage is done, I doubt the leaker will ever again be in a position to disclose classified information ever again. In my opinion Snowden more or less revealed what everyone with any knowledge of how the internet works already knew. He just made it official. I do think he should stand for trial but a sentence that does not befit the damages probably awaits him. I seriously doubt the US will ever get their hands on him though and the effort they put up when the damage is already done seems a bit overkill.
     
  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I would think that nobody on htis planet agrees with everything their governents currently do or have done. That is why there are opposition parties that form in all sects of the world. But to say we, the US, are the bad guys, well, if that is the case maybe we should just start an isolationist policy, close our borders to all others and see how everyone else likes speaking Russian or Chinese by 2030. :rolleyes:
     
  3. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Probably as much as they like speaking English....

    And we are the bad guys to some people -- accept that we're not liked by everyone and all these "the US sucks" posts get to be comical.
     
  4. Vorona

    Vorona Shadow-Whisperer

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    The thing is that a lot of people in the US also agree that Guantanamo, etc. are wrong. The people running it? Yes, they're bad people. The people who who have the power to close it but who keep delaying? . . . not as bad, but still not good, either. All US citizens? Nope, nope, nope. Granted, we have more power than Russian citizens under Stalin, but there's still not a lot we can do other than continue to protest.

    It's sort of like the American view that all French people are snobs. Are some French people snobs? Yes, of course. Are most French people snobs? Not that I've met. One of the major issues, of course, is how we perceive their behavior: what looks like snobbishness to us is often reserve and avoidance of superficiality to them. So, it really irritates me when movies CONTINUALLY make any French person in them a snob.

    Okay -- done digressing for now. Return to Snowden :)
     
  5. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Dude, GWB ia now back at the ranch. :p
     
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    How do you figure that? The people running it are the ones taking the orders from the ones who could close it down ... but they're not as bad?!?! WTF, K?

    You should really look at the overall picture before deciding who is "bad" and who is "not so bad." The politicians would close the place in a heartbeat if they believed the voter would go against them for keeping it open. Ultimately, it IS all of us who are keeping it open because we don't care enough to do anything about it.
     
  7. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


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    If I were an American, I would advocate the death penalty for Snowden. Any way you slice it, he is a traitor who broke an important oath.

    As a Canadian, I say we should give him asylum. Obviously he wouldn't be getting any government jobs dealing with sensitive documents -- he could work at the bowling alley in Fort McMurray or something -- but he did let us know some of the details on the kaka the Americans are pulling in terms of spying on ostensible friends.
     
  8. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    Practically speaking, buying stuff from USA as an individual subjects you to a LOT of import tax. I once got a package from USA; a few fan shirts with Belkar from OotS and Futurama stuff. The tax was almost as much as the price + shipping. Never again.
    Anyway, people on this board are overwhelmingly opposed against piracy. If you combine your moral outrage against the USA with piracy, you just threw any hope of sympathy out the window. The former is understandable, but the latter is unforgivable here.

    But to be honest, I miss piracy. Where I live, all those websites are blocked, and I haven't been able to enjoy new games and movies for over a year.:(
    At least I have my harddrives with terabytes of old stuff:D
     
  9. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


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    You're in China, right? Are they blocking sites because they take piracy seriously? Or are they trying to keep Western Influences out?
     
  10. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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  11. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    Yeah, you'd be shocked how Americanized the Chinese have become. Not westernized, though, just wannabe-Americans. They use words like kindergarten instead of nursery, State Grid instead of electric company (despite it being a nationwide company, and China has no states). I try to explain how lame and nauseating the idol-worship of America is in my eyes, but it falls on deaf ears. Most Chinese would be shocked about the way Americans think of their Chinese brothers. I never met such a bunch of characterless airheads, uninterested in anything relevant (politics, history, geography, science, are all boring topics with too much 'facts' that children would be forced to learn at school. Since it offers little reward to know such things, teachers will usually just let children play games in science class), and completely absorbed in posturing, consumerism, bourgeois mediocrity and melodrama. Lots of Chinese returned from visiting the West have converted to whatever religion first approached them, like lovesick puppies doing anything for approval. They watch hollywood crap like vampire/werewolf/zombie gore movies, reality & talent shows, horrible shows promoting narcissistic childish cruelty like Gossip Girl, and even their own TV shows are devoid of realism. Everything is picture-perfect, manufactured, and there is no translation in Chinese for melodrama. The worst is, they don't know how to take things with a pinch of salt - everything in life is deadly serious. If a rich guy shows off his car, everyone is jealous, and nobody would criticise him for his tasteless, inconsiderate attitude. Don't expect much cultural enrichment from the average Chinese: If they even have any traditional culture left, they're trying their darndest to get rid of it.

    Being European, I can't help but feel disappointed. It's like I got on the plane and landed in America, while I was expecting something totally different. Perhaps Chinese have more in common with Americans than Europeans! As far as the great firewall is concerned, it is real. Google sometimes gets blocked for a couple minutes, hampering me. But I've seen examples of western websites specifically blocking my browser because it has a Chinese IP address. Both China and the USA are interested in upholding the information bottleneck. Whether it's political dissent, trade, or a shift in values that is feared, the people at the top have a vested interest in keeping people in China smallminded and petty.
     
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