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Smaug vs. the Balrog of Moria

Discussion in 'Booktalk' started by Beren, Nov 6, 2011.

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  1. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If they had a one on one showdown, who would win in your honest opinion?

    I realize this is by its nature really speculative, but this is actually a pretty popular thread on Tolkien-specific forums, and its a question I've often pondered privately at times, so I may as well post it here as well.
     
    Beren, Nov 6, 2011
    #1
  2. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The Balrog can't fly, so I'm with Smaug on this one.
     
    Paracelsi, Nov 6, 2011
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  3. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Actually not sure. Smaug can fly and breathe fire, but the Balrog is immune to fire...I suppose if Smaug managed to get a good bite on the Barlrog, it would be game over. I guess Smagu would win.
     
    Rawgrim, Nov 6, 2011
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  4. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I think the balrog is a fallen semi-deity according to the Tolkien mythos, no? In that case, I would expect that it should win. It went toe-to-toe with Gandalf (who is a semi-deity as well, IIRC).

    Haven't read the Silmarillion in ages, though, so my premise may be wrong, but I'm voting Balrog.
     
    dmc, Nov 6, 2011
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  5. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Isn't the One Ring only vulnerable to the fires of Mt. Doom (since it was created there) and dragon fire? The implication would be that dragon fire is no ordinary fire.
     
    Paracelsi, Nov 7, 2011
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  6. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    As I recall, the wizards came from that same continent as the gods, but not much else is said about their origins. They're not ordinary humans, despite their appearance, but that doens't make them a semi-deity either. The elves came from that same continent too.

    As for the Balrog, I don't think much is said about it's origins. It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion too (and I won't reread it soon either - it wasn't really a good read), but I think the Balrogs were somehow already there, laying in wait somewhere in the planet apparently. Pretty much the same for dragons, as I recall.
     
    henkie, Nov 7, 2011
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  7. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    They are demi deities - they are all Maiar. Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman and all Balrogs are Maiar, although obviously not all are as powerful as each other.

    I think dragons were made by Morgoth.

    Still, dragons were mighty beings indeed - hard to say what the outcome would have been. But I'd probably go with the Balrog, since Smaug was felled by a single non magical arrow, whereas the Balrog took all of Gandalf's strength to defeat.
     
    Proteus_za, Nov 7, 2011
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  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I definitely remember that Melkor created the dragons and I thought that the wizards and balrogs were lesser versions of the first spirits of the same type as Sauron.

    According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog) they are maiars. From that article: "In later writings they ceased to be creatures, but are instead Maiar, lesser Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron, spirits of fire whom Melkor had corrupted before the creation of the World.[3] They required power of the order of Gandalf's to destroy them,[20] and as Maiar, only their physical forms could be destroyed."
     
    dmc, Nov 7, 2011
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  9. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    A better contest would perhaps be Ancalagon, the mightiest of all winged dragons, against Durin's Bane (Balrog of Moria). Even still, I think the Balrog would have the advantage.
     
    Proteus_za, Nov 7, 2011
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  10. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    So, from reading that wiki article, the question would be decided by whether or not the balrog in this contest is one of the earlier envisionments of balrogs, or one of the later ones.
     
    henkie, Nov 7, 2011
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  11. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Well, I think you have to go with the later version, as that is the one that Tolkien published and therefore publicly approved. The others were, I guess, taken from his notes, etc., although I admit to having avoided everything published by his son like the Black Plague (unless the Silmarillion was published by his son, as I read that a couple of times, but never really got into it).
     
    dmc, Nov 7, 2011
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  12. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    My suggestion would be to read the Fall of Gondolin again. Unwinged Dragons and Balrogs fought at that battle.
     
    Blades of Vanatar, Nov 8, 2011
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  13. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    The Silmarillion was mostly written by J.R.R. Tolkien, but he died before he completed it. The published version was finished by his son, but it's much more father than son.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Nov 8, 2011
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  14. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    This is one of the geekiest of possible discussions.

    Having got that out of the way, I'd have to Balrog, due to the semi-deity magical angle, whereas Smaug is not even one of the mightiest of dragons, and yes, was felled by one lamo arrow.
     
    Harbourboy, Nov 9, 2011
    #14
  15. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Hey, if we really wanted to make this geeky, we'd be doing an analysis of the physics of the Balrog's flame ability as well as doing projectile analyses of the arrow that killed Smaug, a potential biological analysis of the hypothetical organ systems of a dragon that would allow a single arrow to essentially instantly fell such an enormous beast, etc.

    We're not even close to maximum geekiness here and I resent your implication that we are. :p


    Plus, Beren started it . . .
     
    dmc, Nov 9, 2011
    #15
  16. Merlanni

    Merlanni Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    But were? Outside? Cage fight?
     
    Merlanni, Nov 9, 2011
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  17. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I rest my case.

    :p
     
    henkie, Nov 9, 2011
    #17
  18. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Huh? Pardon me, I have at least some life outside of fantasy fiction and games. :p
     
    Beren, Nov 9, 2011
    #18
  19. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It would be geekier if we added in someone from Star Wars (Darth Sidious) and someone from Star Trek (um, Q?) and then had to compare powers from across universes......
     
    Harbourboy, Nov 12, 2011
    #19
  20. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Now look who wants to magnify the geekiness . . .
     
    dmc, Nov 12, 2011
    #20
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