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Roleplaying Demogorgon decision

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Aug 4, 2003.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    SPOILER ALERT

    I was wondering what people thought about the proper roleplaying decision on demogorgon i.e., whether or not to simply read the scroll and trap the false Helmites inside, thereby leaving them to certain death, or attempt to defeat the beast yourself.

    If you're playing evil, the decision is easy - you seal the keep. The evil character would say, "I've already plundered everything I can out of this keep, there's no extra reward here for saving them, so why should I put myself in harm's way to save these fools, who tried to play me for a fool, and lied to me?" (Oh, and then he'd add, "Hand me the scroll.")

    If you're playing good, it's not as easy of a decision. I have no doubt that Bioware intended for you to seal the tomb, because even the goody two-shoes in ToB like Keldorn and Mazzy state that the false Helmites probably deserve to die for their actions. So Bioware is almost telling you that it's OK to seal the keep. Still, would a good character (especially so if the PC is a paladin) feel the need to go back to the keep and defeat this great evil, even if he feels that the false Helmites deserve death? I mean, all the false Helmites die no matter what you do anyway, so would a good character feel the need to defeat the evil to ensure that it can never be released from the keep at some future time?

    Oh, one more thing - if you leave the WK area, and do nothing (for the purpose of getting more experience points prior to facing demogorgon) does anything happen? Do you get an unlimited amount of time to come back, or once the deva tells you of what your choices are, does that force you to either seal the keep or attack him? I guess what I'm asking is if I come back a month later in game time, does Demogorgon leave?

    [ August 04, 2003, 17:10: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]
     
  2. Mr Writer Gems: 8/31
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    If you kill it you are actualy releasing it, when its in the keep its trapped forever, if you kill it then it is banished from the prime material to its home, the abyss. Where its not inconcivable that it could back to the prime one day, it is the prince of deomons after all.
     
  3. Skywind Gems: 10/31
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    I believe it depends. Maybe the paladin will want to banish it as the reason you gave, maybe he just want to show it that good will always triumph over evil, maybe this maybe that....

    Anyway, a evil or neutral person may also try his luck on it as he may thought that it had powerful or valuable items, but turn out, it does not have any(I'm one of them). :(
    It can also be that the person was feeling kind of immortal and want to kill it just to show that he is almighty.

    I don;t think it will leaves. I tried something like that before(I tried taking a nap after the false Helmites went in to check if it was dead. After I awoke and went in, it is still inside). It also happened the same way with Kangaxx. I killed it's lich form, but had no weapon that could harm it at that time, except for the cloak of stars. So I ran out and went to complete the Windspear quest to get the holy Avenger and get back to kill it(It did not went out to create chaos like what it said it would, right after you gave him his two body parts).

    [ August 04, 2003, 16:41: Message edited by: Skywind ]
     
  4. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    One more thing - does anyone know off-hand what the XP difference is? I know you get 80K each for sealing the keep. Do you get 80K each for defeating it, in addition to the XP value of demogorgon itself? I've done it both ways, but I don't remember how much you got for killing him (last time I sealed the keep).
     
  5. Menion Leah Gems: 9/31
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    I think if you're evil you might want to kill him too. Maybe you just want to kill everything :) .

    I don't think there is a really good aligned way to do this. Trapping him and Orden inside the castle isn't exactly Good and releasing him into the Abyss isn't either.

    I'd just go for the kill. More experience, more fun, good for ego :D .

    Experience (from Dan Simpson's Guide):

    Pick either Enter the Keep or Use the Scroll and she'll give you the
    scroll (just in case). This is worth 25,000 experience.

    The easiest is to simply take the New Scroll, use it and seal both
    inside. This gets you 80,000 quest experience.


    Demogorgon - 290 HP -12 AC -8 THAC0 5 Attacks
    36,000 experience
    Mariliths - 23,000 experience
    Balor - 26,000 experience
    Glabrezu - 12,000 experience
    Cambion - 18,000 experience

    Killing the Demogorgon is also worth 100,000 quest experience. Talk to
    Orden to get 20,000 quest experience.
     
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Quote:

    Killing the Demogorgon is also worth 100,000 quest experience. Talk to
    Orden to get 20,000 quest experience.


    Is that per character or total? If it's per character, it's huge, if it's total, not so big of a bonus IMO.
     
  7. Menion Leah Gems: 9/31
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    I am not sure, because I can't remember how much I got when I did it myself (long time ago).

    But I think quest xp means that everybody in your party gets it, because when everybody gets xp I think it says something like:
    ... has received xxxxx quest experience.
     
  8. CamDawg

    CamDawg The gaze of the Wolf reaches into our soul Veteran

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    Yep, quest experience is per character, ie every character gets 100,000 XP each, not 100,000 divided over the party.

    I think the good choice is a little more clear cut. At the time you need to make the decision, you don't know the false Helmites will be killed. Yes it's a strong possibility, but it is not a certainty (splitting hairs, I know). I think the cop-out lines are similar to what you get when you first encounter Firkraag. Yeah yeah yeah, he's evil, but we'll be back a little later when he won't kick our butts.

    The cop outs probably made more sense *before* they toned Demogorgon down.
     
  9. DarkGoddess Gems: 9/31
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    Hmm, I don't know if the Demogorgon XP is quest XP. I thought it was just 120,000 all together and talking with Odren for the last time was 20,000 quest. It's been a while, but that's what I thought it was.
     
  10. Foradasthar Gems: 21/31
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    A chaotig good character might well leave them rotting inside as it would be the appropriate non-lawful punishment for such evil beings.

    An evil character might be ambitious and powerhungry enough to go after demogorgon himself for various reasons. Wether for the loot or power to be gained from it, or just because he viewed this demon as any other thing in his life: an potential future enemy best taken out while they're still weak.

    Never forget that there are more than just 9 alternative personalities for any given character, despite the limitations put on them by the 9 different alignments.
     
  11. Greystar Gems: 7/31
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    Or maybe he wont want a powerful demon after his ass, so he will leave without doing anything?
     
  12. Arutha Gems: 5/31
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    It all depends on whether your chars consider "the big picture" or not:

    - Chaotic Evil / Neutral chars: don't do anything, let Demogorgo wreak havoc and chaos on this plane.
    - Selfish chars: Use the scroll. No point getting in harm's way.
    - Pure Evil: Kill Demogorgo so he'll be free to return to his plane, organize his troops, and come back.
    - Naive Good: Kill Demorgo and try and save the Helmites.
    - "Greater" Good: Use the scroll to emprison Demogorgo for eternity.
     
  13. Rastor Gems: 30/31
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    Demogorgon - 290 HP -12 AC -8 THAC0 5 Attacks
    36,000 experience
    Mariliths - 23,000 experience
    Balor - 26,000 experience
    Glabrezu - 12,000 experience
    Cambion - 18,000 experience

    That is total (divided among characters, just as with everything else you kill).

    In addition, you get 100,000 experience points per character as well as an additional 20,000 per character for talking to Odren.
     
  14. Trimm Gems: 2/31
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    Why not choose both? Kill Demogorgon, and then place Helm's scroll in your quickslot before leaving the keep. If you time it right, you can pause the game before the scroll turns to dust. Perfect for the advancement of that which is most important to lawfully evil aligned characters...themselves.
     
  15. Rastor Gems: 30/31
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    Because that's a really cheesy exploit of the game rules.
     
  16. Trimm Gems: 2/31
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    I most certainly agree. I try to explore and exploit every possible avenue of any RPG. IMHO, that's half of the fun.
     
  17. Spelladonna Gems: 14/31
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    Except that isn't roleplaying. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Death Whisper Gems: 9/31
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    evil: slaughter the entire population of amn (save for ribald and a priest for buying\selling stuff and bribe the rep back up).

    good: give your little sis or bro a lollipop :p
     
  19. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    For a Paladin, it depends on whether you emphasize the LAWFUL or the GOOD in your alignment. If you are more focussed on the Lawful, you will seal the keep and let the false Helmites get the shaft. If you emphasize Good, you will have compassion on the bastards and try to save them.

    An evil character might well do anything -- if he thinks it'll supply cash, he'll go for it regardless of the consequences. He might also keep his word to Demogorgon and let the beast go free. He might also decide that Demogorgon is too powerful and may be a personal danger, in which case he'll seal the keep to protect himself from a future run-in with the Prince of Demons.

    The same could be said for a neutral character, though I'd guess most would see Demogorgon's presence in the Prime Material as being too unbalancing.
     
  20. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    It all depends on whether your chars consider "the big picture" or not:

    It's important to understand that there can't be any fixed outlines for Chaotic alignments. 'Upholding' a Chaotic alignment is in its nature lawful. You only have different laws. Chaotic is more whimsical than that and, should the whim be such, a CE could even perform an externally heroic, noble and saintly act for the sheer fun of it, or to degrade the act itself or of other blasphemous motives. There's no rule here.

    I would agree on pure evil - one not oriented on the profit of the individual evil being (about any evil alignment might choose to cower from Demogorgon, to help out Helmites for reasons of profit or even reputation), or on individual pleasure from destruction (CE might kill Demogorgon for this reason). But this here pure evil rarely happens among mortals. It's simply insane. By human standards, evil is never selfless and thus there's no commitment and no trust within evil. It, however, still seems naive to picture an individual or group 'spreading the cause of evil' or 'furthering the cause of evil'.

    I don't get the naive and greater good points. IIRC you seal the keep, imprisoning him forever, and then he seals the exit, which forces you to kill him. The Helmites are safe and you pardon them (killing them is un-good, even if it wouldn't make you downright evil). There's no way to imprison him and keep him alive within the keep. I believe that if you seal it and kill him, he's not really free either.

    As for roleplaying:


    - 'Morning

    - Hruumpphhhh? Who be it?

    - I am Charname, a humble paladin of Chevalier, The Hand on The Mouse. Maybe my level is 22, but my faith is strong. I have come to put an end to your evil and kick your unholy arse

    - What?! Are you insane?

    - Most probably. I bet you're not going to regret, atone etc?

    - I?! Prince of Daemons? You puny mortal. You dare tell me to atone?

    - Just a formality. So now that we're done with it, prepare for some fun.

    - I am immortal!

    - Not precisely. When I'm here, your immortality is... suspended.

    - Rroaargh! So you want to face me?! Be it! Unleash your pathetic hatred. Show how you want my blood.

    - Eeh, maybe if you caught me earlier in the morning, or if Jaheira hadn't found that Cure Hangover scroll. Then it would be personal. But you overestimate yourself. I don't hate you.

    - What? And you call yourself good?! You don't even bother to hate me?

    - Sort of.

    - So, you disdain me.

    - Waste of energy. But I do pity you a bit, perhaps I'm just too good.

    - Enough of your holy babbling. Your death will be long and exciting. Each one.

    - You don't believe that yourself, do you? Eat my justice and may it screw your liver.

    - You know a bit about screwed liver, paladin.

    *massive Carsomyr strike*
     
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