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Refugees

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    So no one seems to have posted on this topic. Given that many of our European members are a lot closer to the issue than those of us in the U.S., what is the prevailing thought, how is this impacting you and your neighbors, etc.?

    All I get is talking heads and the inevitable blame game (blah, blah, wouldn't have happened if Germany didn't roll out the welcome mat, blah, blah, have some pathos for these poor, war-torn refugees, blah, blah, this isn't about political refuge, it's about finding a better economic situation, ad nauseum).

    Is it being treated the same over there? What am I missing in my insular, can't believe we are already wasting oodles and gobs of time on the 2016 election, U.S. of A?
     
  2. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    I don't think it's impacting our country at all, though with my hikikomori tendencies, I wouldn't really know if it did.

    Personally, I think it's a horrible idea for those on the receiving end, but I can't really blame people for seeking a better life.

    How this is ultimately gonna impact the economy, I can't say. I don't imagine it'll be healthy.
     
  3. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Pretty much the same here, dmc. We've had a few thousand refugees crossing our borders on their way to Germany now that Hungary has walled itself in. They've put barbed wire around their border with Slovenia yesterday too. Just in case. :shake:

    The fact is, probably not even half of these "refugees" are actual refugees, but simply economic migrants seizing the opportunity, or worse, people whose sole aim is to get to Germany and live nicely off welfare. The majority of the countries that they've crossed are completely safe, and yet practically none of these people want to stay (t)here. Everyone wants to go to either Germany or Sweden, pretty much. They're also predominantly young males. Actual refugees -- families, women, children, the elderly etc. are in the minority.

    All I can say is, thank God that nobody wants to stay here, because our idiotic politicians would be more than happy to take anyone in and put them on welfare indefinitely, whereas more than 25% of our own population lives in poverty and has had social benefits reduced so severely that nobody can actually survive on that alone any more.

    But yea, I definitely agree that Germany is mostly to blame for the current mess because first they were welcoming everyone with open arms, and then changed their minds shortly afterwards. Suddenly starting to apply common sense after you've directed hundreds of thousands of people to your borders just can't work, unfortunately.
     
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  4. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    Personally, I believe that Germany is committing suicide. The German population is not large enough that it will be able to remain the majority. The past twenty five years have shown that 3rd world immigrants do not have any interest in assimilating and taking on the culture of the nations they move to. Instead they wish to supplant the culture with their own. Considering (as Tal mentioned) that many of them are not actually refugees, I think a more appropriate term may be "invasion".

    It will not surprise me at all if in the next ten or so years there is a second wave of immigrants from Europe trying to get to North America to escape what is happening now. Tal, if you need a room until you get on your feet let me know.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I just read about the most cynical response ever coming from Saudi Arabia -- a Muslim country that is making sure that no refugees come there (because they sure won't be paying for anyone's food & rent). They're offering to build 200 mosques in Germany to serve the needs of the incoming Muslims.

    Says it all, really. I may yet need to take you up on your offer, Snook. Let's just hope that our little country doesn't become interesting enough in the following years. :shake:

    Edit: Let's see if I can summon @Ragusa -- I'd really like to hear his take on this insanity.
     
  6. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    What level spell is that?
     
  7. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    It's an epic level spell only available to rulers of domains.
     
  8. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Partial success! ;)
     
  9. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    Chuckled when I saw this:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    A friend on FaceBook who lives in England posted this.


    Personally I find the Western attitude including in particular the USA's disgusting. The USA has a quota of 12,000 we could stick those in Texas and no one would even know they were there. What has happened to humanity? We spout hyperbole of tolerance, of freedom of rights but in the end actions do count louder than words.

    I applause Germany.
     
  11. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    I'll admit, it's a nice appeal to humanity. Unfortunately, it's easy to feel empathy for a boy who washes up dead on a shore. It's not easy to feel empathy for millions of people that you don't know. To most people, these "refugees" are only a statistic and the only thing they can be sure of is that they bring change to their lives. Change they never asked for and are not prepared for.
     
  12. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] There are seven billion people inhabiting our world. Four million is but a puddle in the ocean of our population. It isn't a matter of empathy in my opinion. It is simply a matter of simple human decency. We in the USA or at least our representatives spout off a bunch of rehtoric about human rights, freedom, morality and such garbage but when it comes to the wall it's seems the truth is the slogan. "Shoot the bastards." Yes I know that is a bit strong but we place a quota of 12,000. We are a large country with a large population that has absorbed to some exten or another many different cultures .

    People are making judgements without facts. People are passing on cliches they have heard or read. Do not judge others if you are not willing to be judged by the same criteria. The very least the more affluent countries could do is provide food, clothing, water, shelter to those refugee camps. The very least countries with resources could do is try and find a solution. "Not in my backyard" is a dangerous attitude. If the situation was reversed and it could easily be so then it is best to remember that our judgement was negative and expect only the same. How many of those 4 million are children? Do only children matter? Who does matter? Europe went through two World Wars in the 20th century. There are still people alive today who can remeber WW II. There are people whose parents and grandparents told them about it. Who wants to live in a war zone? Who wants to live in constant fear for their lives?

    I can remember when we took in Hungarian refugees. OH, sorry they were Europeans so that makes them one of us. Big difference, cynicism intended.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2015
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    The video Nakia posted unfortunately completely ignores the fact that the majority of people now coming to Europe on the refugee wave are simply not refugees. It's hard to believe, but the media in many EU countries is aiding in covering up this fact with literal instructions to the journalists that they basically need to write exclusively about the positive aspects of immigrants arriving to the EU and downplay all others. Similarly, most people here have noticed that while actual refugees are in the minority, nearly all media houses and the press are only showing pictures and videos of actual refugees, while thousands of migrants who are not are conveniently not pictured or shown on video.

    Every now and then though, we get to see unedited images and video where the real situation is presented -- small groups of refugees being pushed to the back of the camps and fighting for scraps, whereas large numbers of fake young "refugees" (exclusively male) crowd at the front, force their ways into the trains, climb in through the windows to make sure that they get to Germany first, etc. Fights between the actual refugees are the fake ones are constant; for instance I've recently seen a video of an actual refugee yelling about how the fakes are taking all the food for themselves and that "they're rich, they're not real refugees".

    A similarly tragi-comical incident happened with a bus intended to leave from Slovenia with the refugees (and "refugees") a few days ago. When they wanted to board everyone who applied, nobody stepped up because they'd all forgotten the fake names they provided to the authorities a few days prior.

    So it's this kind of taking advantage of the refugee crisis by unwanted elements and the skewed reporting about it that is naturally making people very concerned. When the media is actively deceiving the population for the sake of political correctness, you can be sure that something is VERY wrong.
     
  14. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Tal, you are there and I am not. I believe that many do take advantage but the thing is what is being done to help those who need it? Where is the UN in solving this problem? People are reacting because of prejudice. They, the refugees, are not Christian, they are from a completely different culture than the majority in Europe and North America. The fact that other Muslims have been absorbed successful into our culture doesn't change peoples minds.

    I am critzing my own country harshly. We could take in a lot more than 12,000 without a problem.

    Did you see my post just prior to yours? Posted about the same time.
     
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Nakia, these fake refugees are actually the largest part of the problem. When you've got so many people arriving without any documents or paperwork, how do you decide who's a legitimate refugee and who isn't? Any kind of background checks are expensive and take time even under normal circumstances, but for these numbers of people they're on the verge of impossible to do.

    As far as I know, all the legitimate refugees who actually have any kind of papers to prove that they're Syrian, for instance, are taken care of. But even they have to fight their way through masses of fake refugees because (AFAIK) there's no order of precedence, everything is first come, first serve. And you can imagine what kind of people fight their way to the head of any large group.

    Sure, people are reacting because of prejudice too. But I'm quite sure that the overwhelming majority of the population have only sympathy for actual refugees. It's just not sensible to expect everyone to extend the same kind of courtesy to anyone else who comes banging on the EU doors and demanding to be taken care of without as much as an ID to prove who they are. Everyone from economic migrants to terrorists and criminals are taking advantage of this situation right now. It would be utter folly to simply admit everyone without any discrimination. Not to mention that the majority of the EU countries are still deep in recession and that they simply can't afford to take care of so many more people when they can't even take care of their own any more.

    The sad reality of life is that people die by the thousands every day all across the world. While it's happening away from our borders, none of us are too bothered with this status quo and certainly nobody is making a tragedy of this fact that we're all aware of. But when these people are suddenly starting to make way for the countries offering the highest welfare checks, there's this global expectation that everyone should start taking them in. Once you start a trend like that, you can't stop it. Millions of people all across the world live in poor conditions. Germany and Sweden can't take them all in, not even remotely. And only a negligible percentage of them will settle for anything less. What happens when Germany and Sweden have had enough and close their borders? People will still be coming for months afterwards and they'll get stuck in whichever country will be the last to let them through their borders.

    Slovenia for instance is one of the safest countries in Europe, very low crime rate, but our economy is still recovering and welfare is very low even for our own population. Despite all this, we welcomed all refugees with open arms. It's kind of comical watching our intrepid HR activists trying to convince any of them to stay here, when the only response they ever get back is "Slovenia NO NO! Germany! Germany!".

    It's natural that if you're in a situation where you've got nothing to lose that you want to make the best fresh start (which they clearly believe that Germany or Sweden will provide), but when they ALL want to go there forcing any kind of quotas becomes a completely moot point. Several thousand refugees have crossed Slovenia so far and not one of them asked for asylum here. So what now? Do we force them to stay here when clearly they don't want to?

    I certainly agree that the US could and should take more in, though. But opening the can of worms about the US's responsibility for the complete destabilization of the Middle East and the resulting consequences that now the EU has to pay for should probably have its own thread. Even so, I still maintain that it's utter madness for ANY country to take anyone in without knowing who they really are in this day and age. Here, this regular system of checks has failed completely due to the overwhelming number of people assaulting the borders and the majority of them coming in illegally, without any proof of identity.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
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  16. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    We have a problem. Is there a solution? I think so. Maybe not an easy one, maybe what I think is not the best one. If so many of the "refugees" are not from Syria it might not hurt to consider who are the most needy. As I understand it the camps are not well maintained.

    The heads of the European countries should get together along with the USA. There are resources available and the camps should be cleaned up, minimal provisions and shelter given to people. This is one time that I would use armed force if necessary and it sounds as if it is necessary. This armed force is readily available and of course should be strictly supervised. Medical treatment of at least basic kind should also be provided.

    Hokay, I won't throw a rant about the third largest geopgraphical nation in the world taking in the gigantic number of 12,000 when the UK a smaller nation is taking in 10,000.

    True that many, many people die each year in both natural and man made disasters so maybe we have become hardened to that fact but this is causing problem right in our own back yard. The USA connection is very close to Europe and we do bare blame for the problems in the Middle East along with several other countries. So we should be part of the solution.

    A probably factious thought just crossed my mind but there is a bit of wishful thinking in it. Could we send all our wanta-be Presidential candidates to Europe to sort out the problem?
     
  17. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    There is no "human decency" without empathy. If you feel no empathy toward someone, you have no reason to treat them well unless they provide you with a clear benefit.

    The only thing a massive group of people like that represent is a threat to most countries, whether it's a question of economic stability or simply a question of security.
     
  18. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Keneth, I think we are using or defining empathy in different ways. The Online dictionary defins empath as
    IE: I simply cannot feel empathy for a person who has been raped or abused as a child because I have never been raped or abused. After discussions with those who have had this happen I can understand, sypathize with them but I cannot identify with them. Even if I think of how I might react under similar circumstances those would be my reactions and not theirs.

    IE: Someone who has reasonably normal vision cannot empathize with me and can be actually very annoying and cause problems if they try to. I have had people try to fix something so it is easier for me to use and all they do is make it harder for me.

    Being empathetic can actually be harmful. It is subjective and not objective. We have a problem and it is not going to go away simply because we don't like it. The more emotonal our reaction the worse we will make the problem. This is a time to be objective not subjective.

    I can understand the fears of others but that does not mean I think those fears are correct.

    Dare I point out that Hitler used the fears of the German people to justify torturing and killing millions of people?
     
  19. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    I see sympathy as a result of empathy. As someone who is incapable of either, that is how I perceive it.

    Regardless of how you choose to interpret the traits, both are a vital part what we call "humanity" or, as you put it, "human decency".
     
  20. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    The "fake" refugees might not be from Syria but it is not like they are moving from one gravy train to another. They are mostly Afghans or east Africans both places not really known for their peace and quiet. I work with many of these young men as a teacher and from my point of view everyone is more or less correct. Except for Snook who has absolutely no idea whatsoever. The problem is what are you supposed to do when there are a bunch of hungry desperate people knocking on your door? I don't think we are willing to shoot them all so we have no choice but to help as best we can.

    I must also say that the view of humanity expressed here by some people is quite revolting. You are aware that even people from other countries with darker hair are humans right? They care about themselves just you care about yourself. They want a decent life. They can't have a decent life where they were born so they try to seek one out. Many of them have very conservative views which clash with liberal western values so that is a problem but it isn't really an invasion. The problem as always is a matter of distribution of resources, I am sitting here writing on my 1000€ computer in my dedicated computer room and later I wll go watch some Doctor Who on a big screen TV laying in my big sofa in my living room, tonight I will go to sleep in my big bed which I have to myself while watching TV on my other big screen TV. In a short while I will take my car and go out and buy some food and I can buy any food I want. That is my life, I am a lower middle class public servant in the western world. There are lots and lots of people who would view me as kinda poor but for the vast majority of humanity I am unbelievably rich. We have the money, we have the resources to give EVERYONE a decent life if we were just willing to share. Sadly, we are not instead we view people with nothing as dangerous threats while we keep hoarding our resources and blaming the poor for being poor.
     
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