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Rampage at Virginia Tech, Blacksburg

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by The Shaman, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Duffin Gems: 13/31
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    Of course gun laws are the problem. Do you really think that if they were illegal it would be half as easy to get hold of one?

    Brilliant idea, more guns. I dont know how I didnt think of that.
     
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Old one, you overlook that guns in the US are easily available, for law abiding citizens as well as criminals. That certainly is a contributing factor to gun crime. Leaving the legal gun purchase aside, from what I read it's rather easy in the US to buy an illegal gun. Schoolchildren are known to have done that.

    In an absence of guns the killer at Virginia Tech might have just used a knife or whatever, which is dangerous enough, but doesn't nearly have the danger potential, namely reach, a gun has. He would have been unable to cause as much harm as he did. Every wimp can kill with a gun. All it takes is to pull the trigger.

    As for the inevitable calls that, had pupils or teachers and professors been armed in school shootings: In these cases I see a potential risk for them to be shot later by the police who will have a hard time distinguishing between bad gunmen and good gunmen.

    [ April 17, 2007, 14:37: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  3. Goli Ironhead Gems: 16/31
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    Indeed, Ragusa, and that's nothing to say about the stray shots that might happen if all the people were armed and started shooting.
     
  4. Abomination Gems: 26/31
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    Considering that of all the western cultured, English speaking countries the only one that suffers from repeated school-shootings is the one with the lax gun laws it can't be too hard to draw the conclusion that changing the gun laws might, just might, be the key to preventing this happening?

    Or is the USA going to stick its fingers in its ears and sing "La la la, I can't hear you!"?
     
  5. Old One

    Old One The Old Warrior ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    @Ragusa
    I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore about it but........

    My point was that the guns being used were outlawed. Guns can be had anywhere in the world. The rest of the world has a severe problem with guns too. An AK in parts of the world sells for as little as $5 US. Try buying that here for that price.
    If the student was unable to get them how about a suicide bomb as is being used all over the world? The student did kill himself too, whats to lose? I could make one (no I never would!) with my lack of expertise so I know others could too.

    The funny thing is that not accepting and outlawing foreign students as was suggested after 911 would have stopped this from happening. Outlawing something doesn't stop it from happening. Murder itself is against the law. So is suicide for some reason. Didn't stop it from happening.

    This is unconnected a bit from what happened but It is impossible to police everyone and everywhere. I do wish one teacher with training did have a clear shot and a gun at the start. I no longer carry a gun but would have used one at that time and place had I been there and armed and yes, I have seen a lot of training and use.
     
  6. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    In recent years 3 school shootings were averted/halted by armed citizens intervening...none were escalated because of it. Again :deadhorse: presentation of a firearm does not automatically indicate it will be discharged, and statistics don't track the cases where a firearm is used to prevent a crime without ever being discharged, which is a vast majority of the time.

    The fact that guns are legal in the US and we have had more school shootings than nations were guns are illegal does not prove that making guns illegal would prevent school shootings, this is a unprovable statement as there are too many other variables. The fact is that guns are harder to acquire today than they were in the 30's, 40's , 50's, 60's or 70's, and yet school shootings were almost unheard of then. School shootings are a cultural thing, and America's lack of morality, especially when it comes to gratuitous violence is more to blame than easy access to guns. We need to stop fighting symptoms and go after the disease.

    It is pathetic how the gun control crowd and the blame game crowds cannot wait until the facts are out before they make their plays for press time. :toofar: Jesse, Al, and Louie were probably all disappointed that the shooter wasn't a white kid so that they could move on from the Imus issue and bury their statements in the Duke case.

    Somebody dies, and for some reason it isn't enough to lay the blame at the feet of the murderer, so we (society) have to go find more people to blame.


    My sincerest condolences to the families of the victims of this tragedy.
     
  7. Old One

    Old One The Old Warrior ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Well said Darkwolf.
     
  8. Dinsdale Gems: 13/31
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    Great post, Darkwolf.
     
  9. khazadman Gems: 6/31
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    It turns out that the weapons were bought in a legal manner. Cho Seung-Hui, of South Korea, was a permanent resident. So he was not here on a student visa. And he had a 9mm and a 22 caliber.
     
  10. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    The operative word in your comment in describing "the Crowd" is "control." Let me tell you a story: For years I took an over-the-counter sinus medicine. I suffer from a bad sinus at certain times of the year, but it's not as bad now as it used to be. Well, I went to my corner grocery store one day to buy the sinus pills and found that they were now locked behind a counter and - here's the fun part - my purchase was recorded in a log, and I had to show my driver's license before I could make a purchase that I used to make quite easily. So much for freedom in America.

    The State of Texas (Boneheads Inc.) had passed some silly law because there was a "controlled" substance in my sinus pills that required strict control by the State, even though I'd been buying it for years. Everytime I bought my sinus pills, I had to show my driver's license and my name was dutifully recorded into the State log. You would think that the purchase of a gun would require at least the same serious "control" as sinus pills - you would think. It's really not that difficult to figure out

    [ April 17, 2007, 17:14: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
  11. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I agree with AMaster here. I think it was reasonable for police to assume the two murders in the dorms were an isolated incident. 99.9% of murderers don't go on killing sprees. Even serial killers don't go on mass killing sprees for god's sake. Given the two options - will the killer go to campus and start shooting up the place, or will the killer flee the scene in an effort to avoid capture, that the latter is the far, far, more likely outcome.

    I don't know the layout of VA Tech, but I imagine, if it is like most schools, that the dorms are located away from the actual classrooms, and that you have to walk a decent distance to get from one to the other. I'd argue that if you knew there was a murderer up at the dorms, you'd feel pretty safe down at the classrooms.
     
  12. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Off topic but Chandos how about the rest of the story....

    That sinus pill is THE MAIN INGREDIENT needed to make crystal meth. In fact, it was so common place that the pills were practically flying off the shelves into the hands of the drug dealers to make more crystal meth -- often I could not find the medicine I needed/wanted because the drug dealers would clear entire stores out within a several MILE radius. So Sudafed was regulated by many states and crystal meth production went down significantly in those states. The federal has finally gotten on the bandwagon and has started to regulate such medication as well.

    Personally, I don't mind going to the prescription counter or finding a worker with a key and signing my name next to the space for the two boxes I can buy at a time -- making it more difficult for the drug dealers is worth the added effort on my part.

    To hit your point -- I agree with you. I believe we should concentrate on the use of violence with the drug trade and enforce the gun laws we have religiously. Unfortunately, as you indirectly pointed out, the big money in law enforcement is the drug bust. We are so obsessed with drugs that our wise public prosecutors drop the 5 year weapons charge in favor of the 3 year drug possession charge. Go figure.

    I am all in favor of having guns registered (ALL guns) and having a waiting period. Of course, I would also like to see a ban on assault rifles (that's not going to happen). None of which would have mattered one bit in this instance. Here we had a legal visitor to this country -- who illegally had two firearms. How he got the weapons will certainly come out in the investigation, but it is most likely he obtained them illegally (even if through legal sellers).

    Aldeth: I understand that arguement and would agree with it if not for recent history. The Blacksburg police SHUT DOWN Virginia Tech a while ago when a cop killer evaded police by going on campus. In this case there was a killer who was still armed and potentially on campus -- the police did nothing to ensure the protection of the students. It really shows a difference in attitude of the police -- most police will go to extremes in pursuing a cop killer, but are more lax in pursuit of 'just a murderer.'

    [ April 17, 2007, 18:04: Message edited by: T2Bruno ]
     
  13. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    T2
    I agree with you.


    Old one,
    in my country it is rather hard to get a gun. Gun crime is low. I presume a correlation. I'm not anti gun; I think we about got it right. But I think that there is a too much, or rather, too easy access. So I see Chandos, as well as T2, makes a very good point.

    Outlawing foreign students, or professors while we're at it, would drain America's brain pool.
    That said, I'm all for it :shake: Smart folks of the world, come to Germany. Heidelberg, Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne rock. We like you here. We want your talent.

    [ April 17, 2007, 18:24: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  14. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    Chandos,

    The fact is that any legal sale of a gun by a retail gun dealer requires a higher level of diligence than sudaphrine from retail pharm outlet. When buying a gun, in addition to recording your identification, a background check is completed to see if you have a criminal record. Additionally gun dealers I held accountable for any sales made to individuals who have been drinking or are under the influence of any drugs, and they are protected in most states for refusal to sell a gun to anyone without having to state a reason. Of course private party sales are a totally different thing, as it would be if I went in to buy you Sudafed. However I do not know if it is against the law to make a straw purchase of Sudafed as it is with a gun (one person buying it for another person).

    Personally I have never sold a gun to a private party even though I take a pretty significant loss from the dealer. I can't complete proper due diligence and I don't want a murder committed with a gun I sold someone hanging on my conscience. Some states have laws against the private party sale of firearms, or provide for a way for private parties to engage a dealer to broker the deal so that background checks and identification is recorded and I am fine with those laws...of course they don't stop criminals.

    I would like to see a new law that states that only citizens of the US are permitted to purchase or posses firearms unless they are here on a diplomatic passport or a registered event (shooting contest or display tour), and in such cases all firearms are to be disclosed and the individual to which the firearm is registered would be responsible for any crime committed with that firearm regardless of who committed the crime.
     
  15. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    If that was the case then they could have made it a prescription drug, so that my use would be between me and my doctor. That way the State would not be violating the doctor-patient privilege. When I injured my back, it was actually easier for me to get presrciptions of Vicodin filled than it was to get sinus pills (never once was I asked for my ID).

    BTW, I agree with the rest of your post, T2. :)
     
  16. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Maybe we're looking at this from different perspectives. I don't see how a lockdown would have helped. The initial shootings happened at about 7:15, with the rest happening around 10:00. How can you lockdown a campus in so little time? Keep in mind that we have about 26,000 undergraduates, a few thousand graduates, and probably another thousand or so faculty and staff. Keep in mind that the time in question is when all of these students and faculty are showing up on campus, first thing in the morning. And even being generous and saying that WAS sufficient time, the guy never had to leave campus in the first place. So what do you do, search everyone carrying a bag? There's going to be around 26,000+ bags to search.

    I understand what you're saying about the cop killer, but I imagine it took them more than a couple of hours to lockdown VA Tech searching for him. Your suggestion that more could have been done seems both unreasonable and would have likely proven ineffective given the timeframe involved here.

    Here's the other thing - I heard the first shootings occurred at the dorm. He had got into an arguement with his ex-girlfriend, and the RA got involved to calm him down - he shot them both. While I cannot condone those two shootings, that seems to be something where the guy was really pissed off and snapped. That doesn't justify the shooting - but it makes it almost a crime of passion. There's a big difference between that, and then a couple of hours later going into a classroom, chaining the door shut, and opening up on everyone inside with a pair of 9mm. The first is a snap-decision made in the heat of emotion. The second is a calculated, premeditate slaughter. There is nothing I have seen in recent history to suggest that the first action is typically (or even occassionally) followed by the second action.
     
  17. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    Time for a quick story. My dad aka Papa Snook was trying to buy some Sudafed also. The clerk started reading him the riot act about how he needed to sign some forms and explain why he wanted it etc. etc. My dad at 73 ripped into the kid and said "Do I look like I cook Crystal Meth?, so shut up and give me the f***** pills as my sinuses are killing me." Needless to say, my sister who was with him almost died of laughter/embarrassment.
     
  18. Ancient Galatan Gems: 10/31
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    I'm from Holland, Europe and this how I see the situation:

    I've always seen American people as a people who are overly "proud" on themselves, they think they are the "best", because I sometimes see american tv-programs where they show their "greatness" in their attitude, but hey it's tv anyway.

    Also the access to a lot of different types of guns are so easy, you can almost get a gun when buying a popstickle for instence, so when a person has a serious problem with him/herself or another kind of problem, it's easy to solve it with a gun, because it is so easy accessible.

    Here in holland there is no way you gan get a gun, only if you are a cop, and even then you get accussed of murder when they use it, it's stupid anyway, and if you are hunter you have to follow a program of about 2 years before you can finally have access to a small fire arm.

    Another problem in america lies is in the way america shows itself to the rest off the world, a nation where everybody has the same rights and where everybody is the same.

    I think this is what they "want" to show the world, and that in fact there a lot of misunderstandings and social problems and errors in american society where people are left to themselves alot.

    Also, america always wants to help countrys to solve their wars, hunger and other disasters there.

    But the american army is only placed in countrys where there are resource to gain or another methond to benefit from the country, Irak for instance has masses of oil and there was a dictator ruling the country, so lets overthrow the country, "free" the people, and lets "earn" the resources.

    You won't find the american army in Afrika, because there is nothing to gain for them, in the warzones there are no resources.

    And to start about the Iran question, let's have Iran make their nuclear powerplants, for the fear for a nuclear weapon is way overexaggerated, america has thousands of nuclear weapons and also the most advanced weaponry of the world, so why be scared of Iran?

    Hereby I finish my opinion on the whole problem, it didn't stay with starting topic, but I just wanted to "out" my feelings.

    P.S, if I offended people, which I properly did, just say something about it, and also my excuse for my not percect english writing.
     
  19. Darkwolf Gems: 18/31
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    True, but what does this have to do with gun control or the tragic mis-use of firearms?

    This implies that guns can be bought at any store, which is untrue. Gun dealers have stringent laws on who can and cannot purchase firearms, and people must pass a background check before they can purchase a gun. Additionally it is illegal for individuals with mental illness, addiction to prescription drugs, who use illegal drugs, or who have been convicted of a felony (unless they get their record wiped clean) to own a gun. Private party sales are another issue, and are a problem.

    Really? Are you sure that politicians don't have firearms and that there aren't any other exceptions? None of the rich politically favored perhaps? Additionally, Holland is a much smaller country with far smaller borders to secure. We can't stop the flow of illegal aliens across our southern border, and Mexico has gun laws that make the US's look down right draconian. Make guns illegal and the black market from Mexico will be very prosperous. Sorry, but it would take several generations and billions of dollars to effectively eliminate guns from the US.

    What does how we present ourselves have to do with the topic? If you want to discuss equality vs. opportunity (which is what I think you mean) in the US that would be a separate topic.

    This is not unique to the US. Much of Europe is experiencing many of these same types of issues with the influx of people with a diverse cultural background.

    Unfortunately you are correct in that...and it is high time we stopped. We are well on our way down the road to destroying ourselves. It is time for America to start looking out for ourselves first.

    Yes, and we see all the other nations in the world jumping up and sending their armed forces to the Sudan :rolleyes: All nations are guilty of only taking an interest in that which impacts them but please don't start the claim that the US is showing imperialism. If we wanted to take over nations for oil there are plenty of oil rich nations in our own backyard that would be cheaper and easier to conquer, and the rest of the world would be less likely to stick their noses in.

    How about because the head of Iran has stated that he wouldn't hesitate to use them without provocation on the US and Israel? Do you really think that the US is as likely to use these weapons as Iran? But again, what does this have to do with the shootings in WV??? :yot:

    I know that claiming that someone is "bashing" will get you in hot water around here...but if it quacks like a duck...? :confused:
     
  20. Proteus_za

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    It sounds like what he was trying to say is that the cause of these shootings is the same cause as the violent nature of America. From what we hear, America is quite a violent place, with lots of gun crime etc (no sources sorry).

    He's attempting to give reasons as to why America is so violent, hence his statements that you guys... well what he said.

    The thing about what america wants to show to the world... hes right about that. America never admits to having any problems, but face it you guys do. Violent crime is one of them. Depending on your political standpoint, george bush may be another, and a serious one for my is your lobby groups which make sure laws benefit the corporation rather than the consumer. </off topic>

    Regardless, all these allegations about America are meaningless because the guy was a chinese immigrant with serious problems. And he illegally obtained his firearms.
     
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