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POLL: Most powerful class?

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Faraaz, Aug 7, 2004.

  1. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    Stealing classes also need consideration. Although stolen items are not as good as the ones we encounter during our adventures, most classes who can steal may just as well own early game due to their items. By the time they reach mid-game their skills have been pre-developed enough that few things are worth a challenge anymore. This applies in particular to three classes - Bards, FMT's and MT's.
     
  2. Mayfairy Gems: 8/31
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    Like I just posted elsewhere, Just after Irenicus' dungeon you can acquire all low/mid level spellscrolls and full plates not to mention ring of regen and other stuff which you can sell to buy something nice from adventurer's mart.
     
  3. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    Please elaborate!
    I don't see how they are any different from any other class.
     
  4. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    @ Earl Grey

    My take on Scythesong's post is that by the time my M/T or F/M/T leaves the Promenade, he is wearing the Robe of Vecna, carrying the Staff of Rhynn (+4 weapon), wearing Bracers AC 3 and a Ring of Regeneration, has a spellbook filled with all manner of excellent spells, and still has a huge amount of money in the bank. Thus, I bascially start the game with the best Robe, the best bracers, a great weapon, and lots of spells. The only remaining magical items I feel I *need* to easily beat SoA and ToB are the Staff of the Magi and the Amulet of Power (is that the right name? The Amulet you get from Aran Linvael when you sign up with the Shadow Thieves). But since I also emerge from the Promenade with two scrolls of Protection from Magic and a +4 weapon, the Staff of the Magi, and also the Ring of Gaxx, will soon be mine; and having tons of money means that I can pay off the Shadow Thieves and get the Amulet quickly -- making Chapter 2 the shortest chapter in the game. And if I am playing a F/M/T then I will also start with the Shield of Cheese and the Chesse Helm.

    Thus, I agree with Scythesong. A stealing character will bascially start the game with close to everything they need to beat the game handily. A non-stealing class will take a *long* time to accumulate enough gold to make all the purchases that I acquired before starting Chapter 2. Thus, a stealing class has a big advantage in equipment that will make them more powerful than any other class for quite some time.

    [ August 11, 2004, 18:00: Message edited by: Khemsa ]
     
  5. Drumheller Gems: 6/31
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    Since PvP is out, it seems the discussion implies soloing. After all, who needs a thieving character if you can get Yoshimo and Potions of Master Thievery to do all the work for you?

    I like Earl Grey's idea of xp intervals. The game reinforces this idea with the xp NPC's have when they join your party (1.2M is the highest in SoA IIRC). During the Low interval, F/T is another strong contender. I pretty much agree with NonSequitur for the rest :) .
     
  6. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    @Khemsa
    Yes, stealing does that.

    However the rest of the quote I don't understand.
    By "mid-game" any party has bought (or stolen) what they need and developed their skills. What makes a "stealing class" so special here?
    What is meant by "pre-developed"?

    @Drumheller
    It does not have to be about soloing. A character is not less powerful just because there is an NPC of that class. I think Keldorn is a good example. IMO Inquisitor is a great kit, it's just that (if memory serves me) I've never had my protagonist be an Inquisitor since Keldorn is available.
     
  7. Drumheller Gems: 6/31
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    You're right, but it's assumed that the classes that are candidates for 'most powerful' are versatile enough to be self-sufficient. In the context of a party, even the weakest classes can have their shortcomings negated. A party is more powerful than the mere sum of it's characters.

    It does not have to be about soloing, but in the context of a party, a class's power can change dramatically, at any stage of the game.
     
  8. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    In most situations wizards and sorcerers are the most powerful. However, trouble starts when something is resistant to magic.

    Clerical magic can be as potent as arcane in the right hands. And clerics don't blow so hard in melee.

    Inquisitors are overrated if you consider Carsomyr, but they would make an extremely powerful class absent that insta-dispel on one hit. They would probably be the relatively most powerful class in the game, although they still couldn't survive a duel with a fighter with the same amount of XP and the same stats.

    Cavaliers make good tanks, have some bonuses against the enemies that are quite hard to hit, like dragons, and they can still lay hands or cast spells - Draw upon Holy Might changes the perspective somewhat.

    Swashbucklers when they dual-wield katanas and are specialised in them (which requires you to correct a bug manually in the right 2DA file). They need Use Any Item before they can become uber. Then they wear Shurupak's Plate and wield Carsomyr or some such.

    Can't tell. I've only played anything other than Cavalier as an NPC, without creating it myself. Except maybe helping my brother create his uber swashbuckler, but it was he who played it, anyway.
     
  9. Bion Gems: 21/31
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    @Khemsa- That kind of stealing always seems a bit cheesy to me, as 1) it tends to rely on "Power Word: Reload" when it fails (of course, because every NPC becomes a homicial maniac when you fail, for some reason); 2) it just seems strange to me from an RP standpoint that you would be able to steal bulky, über-powerful, über-expensive items from Ribald et al., both logistically, in terms of shoplifting a full set of armor, and in the context of the game, as the loss of such expensive items would presumably drive the shop out of business; and 3) I know that FR is supposed to be awash in magic, but having über-powerful items available at the local stop-n-shop kindof spoils things for me (and let's not start on all the ToB merchants with a full array of +3 gear). I often tried limiting my reliance on shop-purchased gear for that very reason; if it's a powerful artifact, it just makes more RP sense that attaining it would be difficult, and that it's owners would guard it very, very carefully...

    Then again, 1) more items means more styles of play and more replay value, and 2) powergaming can occasionally be fun, so why not...

    Determining the most powerful character probably relies on many factors, including experience with the game, style of play, etc. I chose "Inquisitor," as it's arguably the most powerful character across the whole population of BG2 players. Why? Because the majority people who have played or are playing BG2 aren't the kind of avid players who hang around SP, are quite experienced with CRPGs, and have played through BG2 numerous times. So, I'm assuming that the majority of BG2 gamers: 1) are relative noobs, with a general but not in-depth knowledge of BG2 and 2E rules; 2) tend to behave "virtuously" relative to quest outcomes; and 3) recruit a full compliment of 5 NPCs (most likely including Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo/Imoen, and Aerie). Given these assumptions, it seems to me that the Inquisitor would be the most powerful character class for most BG2 players, as 1) the least demanding combat strategy is to chunk your opponent with swords; 2) the most demanding encounters for new players tend to be the magical ones, and the Inquisator's über dispel and true sight were almost designed to allow new players to shift the strategy back to enemy-chunking; 3) following on #2, one of the things that can make taking a party more difficult than soloing is worrying about confused/charmed/dominated party members, and the Inquisitor again has the ultimate reset; 4) Paladins tend to get high ability scores due to their high requirements; 5) the sword of cheese; 6) a rewarding stronghold; 7) etc.

    While I would agree that other classes can be more powerful than the Inquisitor for experienced players, if a new player asked me what I would suggest as the most powerful character for his or her first run-through of the game, I would nominate the Inquisitor.
     
  10. Gwynnbleid Gems: 1/31
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    I think that the most powerful is ranger/cleric - 1) is good warrior - protective spells and ranger's abilities
    2) can summon elementals like druid to help in fight
    3) have spells of cleric and druid together
     
  11. Elendrile Gems: 5/31
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    Berserker/Mage, no doubt about it. Kensages might be "cooler" but they don't get to wear armor, bracers, or helmets. And they can't use Enrage. Just use your magic to crush your foes, if they're resistant you just set up Tenser's Transformation and Improved Haste. There is not a single enemy I have found in the game that can stand toe to toe against that.
     
  12. Yirimyah Gems: 11/31
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    Kensai/thief

    With Use Any Item, they can wear armour and use things like Carsomyr and Gauntlets of Extreme Specilization.

    Death on two legs.
     
  13. Mayfairy Gems: 8/31
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    Still being the only one who has voted a single-class thief - although I would've preferred him without a kit - I should give some reasons why I picked this class.

    1) Backstab takes care of most opponents.
    2) Stealth lets you pick your fights and arrange them to your liking.
    It also helps you get away from tough fights to heal/buff.
    3) Open locks / Find traps not only saves you from harm but gives much needed experience.
    4) Steal gives you that equipment you need.
    5) Use Any Item

    I know thief class lacks fighting ability of a fighter, but if you need that, there is a thief kit called Swashbuckler.

    Thief doesn't have access to spell casting skills, except scrolls with Use Any Item feat. In this case you might consider multi-class mage/thief, though I still prefer single-classed one.

    That is what makes a thief my kind of guy/girl. Prepared for (almost) anything.

    @Scythesong: I know you're going to say that Bard/Blade has those abilities (fighting and spell casting) a thief can only gain by multi-classing, but he has no other thief skills than stealing. That's why I'm not so interested in bardic classes.

    EDIT: Yirimyah just gave a one really good thief variation. I wouldn't have remembered that one myself. It can be a little tricky to get that guy to level where you get UAI, but after that...
     
  14. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    1) Backstab takes care of most opponents.
    Except the really hard ones.
    Killing an opponent with one backstab is also far from a sure thing, especially with a single class thief. Then there is the small matter of fighting more than one opponent at the same time. ;)

    2) Stealth lets you pick your fights and arrange them to your liking.
    It also helps you get away from tough fights to heal/buff.

    Other options for picking your fights include using Wizard Eye, Farsight or Invisibility.
    Hide while in the sight of the enemy? Not so good. So what you mean is you run away and hide behind a corner, right?
    Well, you could also use haste and really run away. Or you could have a character that does not have to run away in the first place. :)

    3) Open locks / Find traps not only saves you from harm but gives much needed experience.
    I agree that the experience is nice, but then this character loses experience by chosing to use stealth to avoid some fights.

    4) Steal gives you that equipment you need.
    Or you could just buy it.

    5) Use Any Item
    Yes, after 3.08m xp. It's a nice HLA. The best use I've seen for it is to get 100% MR.
    Carsomyr is often mentioned, but remember that you can't backstab with this weapon.

    IMO a single class thief is far from the most powerful class. A multiclass Fighter/Thief surpasses the standard thief in every way imaginable. The same is true with regard to the Mag/Thi and Cle/Thi.
     
  15. Mayfairy Gems: 8/31
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    Except the really hard ones. Killing an opponent with one backstab is also far from a sure thing, especially with a single class thief. Then there is the small matter of fighting more than one opponent at the same time.

    There will always be those harder opponents. Different tactic is to be used with these. In case of mages these are magic resistant/immune creatures and so on.

    Other options for picking your fights include using Wizard Eye, Farsight or Invisibility.

    Those are wizard's means to do that.

    Hide while in the sight of the enemy? Not so good. So what you mean is you run away and hide behind a corner, right?

    IIRC, You can hide in plain sight if you have enough stealth to do that. With UAI and Mage staff you can do it quite easily. Equip -> Hide -> Stab

    Or you could have a character that does not have to run away in the first place.

    But then you'd have other problems. For example traps.

    I agree that the experience is nice, but then this character loses experience by chosing to use stealth to avoid some fights.

    I didn't say fights are to be avoided. It was just one option.

    Or you could just buy it.

    you don't have to fight a single fight to get that EQ / money as a thief. Makes the early game easier.

    Carsomyr is often mentioned, but remember that you can't backstab with this weapon.

    Personally I don't like Carsomyr, but it can be on second weapon slot and equipped only when a hostile spell is being cast.

    IMO a single class thief is far from the most powerful class. A multiclass Fighter/Thief surpasses the standard thief in every way imaginable. The same is true with regard to the Mag/Thi and Cle/Thi.

    Single class gives levels more quickly than multi-class thus giving UAI faster.

    Someone might say wizards are more powerful, but it all comes down to personal preference. Personally I'm not that good with wizard spells (though I'm right now playing one and still learning.)
     
  16. GI Gems: 5/31
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    Multiclassed Fighter/Thief. To be short, they have very good fighting ability (almost equal singleclass Fighter, because of the skill cap), plus backstab, set trap, use any item, assasination at least 4 times/round, and pretty much everything else except singing and casting spells whenever you want.

    And I like them better than some robe-wearing Fighter anyway :p :D

    (On a side note: the Time Traps do stack, which make this class really powerful if combine with Assassination)
     
  17. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    Farsight can be cast by clerics and anyone (except the wizard slayer) can use Rings of Invisibility/Ring of Air Control or Potion of Invisibility.

    Magic Resistance is not a major problem for mages, they use summons (Skeleton Warriors and Mordenkainen's Swords).

    Traps? No problem, just soak up the damage and move on.


    Not true!
    Multiclass characters gain their first HLA at 3m xp, which in the case of the Fig/Thi actually means that he can get UAI before a single class thief!
     
  18. Mayfairy Gems: 8/31
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    Now this might go a little off topic, but HLA's are given according to XP, and not levels?
    So every character, be it a single class thief or a Fighter/mage/thief gains their HLA's at the same time? :o
     
  19. Son of Bhaal Gems: 17/31
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    [​IMG] Hmmm...maybe somone can help me, I'm considering starting a completly new game (from the start of SoA through to ToB),do I use; multiclass F/M, multiclass F/M/T or Dual Class F/M (my current PC)? :confused:
     
  20. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    The first HLA is gained the first time the character gains a level at or after 3m xp.

    Dual class only count the xp of their second class in determining when they get HLA's.

    @Slayer of the Coast
    Perhaps you should start a new thread instead with more information about which other party members you want to take etc.
    It would be off topic to discuss it further here.
     
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