POLL: Moses: miracle worker or wizard?

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Was Moses a miracle worker or Wizard

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 11 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Moses: miracle worker or wizard? (11 votes.)

Moses: miracle worker or wizard? (Choose 1)
* Wizard - 36% (4)
* Tool of "God" - 64% (7)

 

Not sure I totally understand the question.

Are you asking:

- If he was a Miracle Worker, in the sense that his words and actions were truly the will of God, and he was the instrument through which God commanded the love and submission of man,

or

- If he was a Wizard, in the sense that all his words were no more than the mad ravings of a masterful hoaxer, eaten up by the gullable, desperate Hebrews; and his "Miracles" were elaborate stunts/fiction/coincidences or whatever,

or even still

- If he was a Wizard, he was so in the traditional storybook fantasy D&D LoTR sense? Using actual magic to create the miracles to sway the Hebrews to follow him and defy Egypt?

I'm not even sure I have an answer, I just don't quite understand the question.

 

Assuming Moses was responsible for those actions

 

As Morgoth said assuming he was the "perfomer" not any other.

 

Right, going on the assumption, at least for the sake of this particular arguement, that those events did actually take place and Moses did actually exist. I assume GreenLion is asking for our personal interpretation of the 10 Commandments, but I'll let him clarify for sure.

 

I didn't vote as I don't understand the question either, but I'll put in my 2 cents -- I believe Moses did actually perform the miracles attributed to him, and that he did so by the grace of God. He was neither a trickster nor a practicer of Dark arts.

 

I took a class on the Old Testament in college. The instructor was a Jewish anthropologist from Israel. It was very interesting. There are many arguments as a result of the translations as to who, what and even where regarding this story.

That said, the Bible as we know it today is a book of history commingled with proverbial lore. Its value as a historical tool is dubious. The remaining ancient scrolls that were copied in Hebrew are of historical interest, but still not 100 percent reliable.

The Dr. who taught this class had studied some of these ancient scrolls, and newer copies of other scrolls. As a Jew, he is literate in Hebrew, so he can interpret them himself. In his opinion, the basic story of Moses is true, but it is also filled with fictional symbolism, especially in translations to modern Latin based languages.

He did not deny that some miracles may have taken place, but the timing of them could also be represented as coincidental. According to said Dr., the parting of the "Red Sea" never happened. The path the Hebrews took was across another smaller body of water, one that in those times was many miles across, but very shallow. The winds at times could literally blow the sea back 10 miles, leaving the ground dry for days. However when the winds stopped blowing, a few inches to a couple of feet of water would come rushing back. If you were in the middle of this, you probably signed you own death warrant, because as the ground was moistened, it softened, and you would sink into it. If you didn't get out quickly, you would be stuck and die of exposure, or lack of water (it was a very salty body of water).

Was it a miracle that the water was blown back long enough for the Hebrews to make their escape across it, but not allow the Egyptians to follow? That is between you and God.

That said, I couldn’t vote, as I do not believe in the accuracy of either answer.

 

My answer's going to be pretty obvious ... MIRACLE WORKER.

Darkwolf ... I could take issue with almost all of your points. The Bible is accurate, and Moses did perform those miracles. But that's a whole other topic.

Most of the miracles happen in the book of Exodus. Here we see Moses standing on behalf of Yahweh (the Lord) taking on the magicians of Egypt. For example they were all able to turn their staffs into snakes. Moses' snake (better translated dragon) devoured the snakes of the magicians. The first few plagues were duplicated by the magicians also, but with less potency.

The supernatural reality was that the Lord was going to war against the gods of Egypt, proving that he was more powerful. Pharaoh was supposed to be Horus (iirc) incarnate. Pharaoh's first born son was also considered to be divine. When all the first born children were killed (appropriate topic for the Passover today) Pharaoh's son was also killed.

In other words, the Lord destroyed the divine heir to the throne of Egypt.

As it says in one passage, "In this way I declare war on all the gods of Egypt."

To sum, in the battle of magic verses miracle, miracle made a decisive victory!

 

Mathetais,

I generally cannot find fault with you, but the King James, and American Standard versions of the bible contain many translation errors. The King James Version was edited with an agenda for its intended audience, and the same could be said for the A.S. Prejudice (not in a negative connotation here) is impossible to avoid in the translation of such a large and diverse document, especially as it was written over a period of several thousand years.

Philosophically, I agree with the Bible. It is a guide to life. If read and properly interpreted (by the reader!), it will provide guidance to most of life’s difficult decisions. However, some of the stories have been changed in translation to suit the purposes of those who are publishing it. Further, if taken to extreme, it can provide a dogma for those whose agendas are not what the Bible truly endorses.

Blindly following anything is just as bad as having no faith in anything. They both lead to a life of despair and waste.

That said, I am not saying that though the power of God, Moses did not perform those miracles, I am just providing a professional's opinion. You and I are both free to agree or disagree. I do not believe that such discussions are sacrilege.

 

Nor do I. In fact, I'll go further ... the King James Version is a terrible translation based on a crappy manuscript (to use technical terms )

We're getting closer to the originals through better translation and archeology. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed alot for us.

I'm just glad you used "proverbial lore" instead of "mythology".

Striving to be an educated fundamentalist ...

 

O.K. first i won't even try to mess with Mathetais, obviously he possess great faith or someone has him completley brainwashed (no offence intended).

Second, Depaara you refer to the "dark arts", if such powers are available to man, would they not be granted by "God"? Why is it that Moses can use them but any other man or woman is deemed evil?

These are the Boards of Magic.

Third, Death Rabbit the ten commandments are a different subject alltogether, i'm trying to focus on Moses himself, the Bible shuns witchcraft in any form, and yet the first hero presented to us seems to be a mage.

 

Mat,

Not that you probably care a whole lot, but you just restored all of my faith in you! (not that you had lost a lot, just a tiny bit)

Thanks for the clarification on your stance.

 

Moses was not a magician, wizard or sorcerer. He rather was a 'Cleric of JHWH'. God gave him the power to do miracles, only because he trusted in Gods power.
Many people may have believed that Moses staff was magical. But when Moses hitted a rock in the desert to get water out of it, he was not allowed to enter the promised land, since God told him to SPEAK to the rock. It was not the staff, but Gods will and grace that water poured out of the rock.

On GreenLion's question about Dark Arts:
Not only Moses was granted to do miracles. Elia burned an altar, when 40 priest of Baal could not. With Gods help, Elisa 'summoned' gallons of oil for a poor widow and brought a child back from death. I believe there are still people granted with a special gift (exceptional healing by prayers). The most important thing that this is not Dark Arts, is the intention why people do it: to glorify the name of God.
There are others who do tricks, miracles and things with an other intention. Can't tell for sure that it is Dark Magic.

On Math's comment about the eaten snakes:
There is a man in my church who visited a meating once, where weird, extraordinairy things happened, and he didnt feel comfy. The man who was leading that meating asked the group if there was a christian in the room and if so, if he would leave, because he wasn't able to do his stuff. Seems that the will of God and His presence is still a big influence.

BTW: Im not very into this magic-stuff, and I dont plan to get involved with it either...

 

On the Dark Arts ... according to my belief system, all supernatural powers come from God or from Satan. So even "white magic" would be drawn from satanic orgins.

This might be a good, new thread.

 

wait if "white magik" comes from "Satan" then what supernatural powers come from "God"?

indoor plumbing?

is DarkWolf staring the "Church of Mathetias"?
i'm sure Mat himself would tell you to have faith in none other than God, the alpha and omega oh, wait that's Taluntain.

[ April 17, 2003, 00:24: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

 

Greenlion, when I refered to the 10 Commandments, I meant Moses and his story, as told by the Bible or Charleton Heston or whoever - not "Thou Shalt Not ______". So we're clear now. My bad for not explaining it better.

For my 2 cents, if I see him as anything, it's a cleric. Mages derive their power through study and harness magical energy, where as clerics derive their power directly from the god they serve. He received council as well as power from his god, and I can't see a true mage doing that. Hence, cleric.

 

Well said DeathRabbit, however the feats perfomed by Moses would hardly fall under the category of cleric spells.

Divine Magic, does it exist or is that another topic?

[ April 17, 2003, 00:51: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

 

Actually the feats he performed are exactly what a cleric would do, we're not talking in the D&D sense here and he did performe the sort of miracles expected of priests today. I'm going into the realm of theory here but intense, modulated concentration can affect the environment. The reason prayer groups work is that the intense focus generated affects the world around them, the thing is that mages work in exactly the same way.

 

Ditto to Raistlin - I wasn't referring specifically to D&D clerics, just those who allow themselves to be a channel for the power of their god, and use that power to do God's will, rather than their own. I think a mage would serve himself, rather than a god. The miracles would then be demonstrations of his own power, not God's. Also, the power of the god would vary depending on the intention and temperment of that god - so to say Moses' miracles don't fall under the category of 'cleric' is open to subjective interpretation. Using D&D as a reference, Druids powers deal with nature and the elements, as they follow a difference ethos and serve different Gods than your standard cleric, but they both channel Godly powers nonetheless.

It's been said that a miracle is defined as "when God makes the impossible possible." Moses performed these miracles as demonstrations of God's power, not his own. I see Moses as a cleric because he and God needed each other to get their point across. God theoretically could have easily performed those miracles himself, yet had Moses attempt to convince both Egypt and the Hebrews of his position, only resorting to performing the miracles as proof of God's presence and power when his claims fell on deaf ears. God needed Moses to perform these miracles in a manner that would specifically demonstrate God's will, otherwise how would those who witness the miracle know it's purpose? These 'miracles' would then be open to any number of theories as to their origin and meaning - thereby effectively defusing their purpose. A flashing message following a miracle saying, "This Swarm of Locusts was Brought to You by...GOD!" isn't as powerful anyway.

Clerics of today evoke a similar power, in a way. Not by parting seas, but through the idea that they have god's ear and they impose God's consequences. If the Hebrews didn't believe, and the Egyptians didn't comply, they would suffer the wrath of God. Is that not true today with sinning and the threat of hell and damnation? Do god's will, or else. It's not God who states this, but the cleric on God's behalf.


(Did that come out clear or did I start to ramble? )

[ April 17, 2003, 02:41: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

hey, now this is starting a different topic so go start it.

this is about whether Moses was a wizard in his own right or only acting as a physical mouthpiece for "God".