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Pissed at how crazy the world has gotten lately.

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Dice, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    What I first wrote here has nothing to do with the actual content of this thread so I thought I'd better change it.

    I believe that BLM has been demonized by Trump for his own agenda and it's original message has been lost/looked over/ diverted to "hate group" in the eyes of republicans and conservatives.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  2. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I don't know what to think since you didn't mention what conspiracy theories you're talking about. Or what radical groups and how Trump is utlizing them. Can you elaborate?
     
  3. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    The first ones that come to mind are Qanon and the demonization of BLM. Black Lives Matter is supposed to be a peaceful movement but Trump did nothing to acknowledge their issues and instead focused on the radicals who were vandalizing things. In that way he's lead the Republican/Conservative parties to spread the idea that BLM is a hate organization like the KKK.
     
  4. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    I'm staying out of this one :beer:
     
  5. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    BLM is a Marxist organization and is assuredly not a peaceful one. BLM and Antifa ARE radicals who are vandalizing things and encouraging such in others. Now that is not to say that everyone who says "Black Lives Matter" or supports them is a part of the organization or even knows anything about it, but that just makes them useful idiots. Also, that does not mean that everyone who says "Black Lives Matter" is rioting and looting and tearing down statues.

    Is BLM a hate organization like the KKK? No, I don't think so, but I certainly don't support their Marxist goals which are ultimately to pit various identity groups against each other just like Marx with his Bourgeoisie vs. the Proletariat (only there are far more identity groups; seemingly infinite) to bring down the current United States system and "fundamentally transform" it as you hear all the time now from the Left, presumably into some form of Socialism. So BLM the organization should be demonized in my opinion, but not for being like the KKK.

    If you just want to talk about the idea that "black lives matter", there are probably relatively few people in the United States who would disagree with that statement.

    Now I had never heard of Qanon until the media started bringing it up recently, and from what little I still know they seem like kooks. But who cares? The world is full of various conspiracy nuts. I'm not aware that they are actually DOING anything. I could be wrong since I don't care enough about any conspiracy nuts to learn.
     
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  6. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/

    According to this article Black Lives Matters has grown into a national anti-racism movement broadly supported by Americans, few of whom would identify themselves as Marxist. It also states that backlash against BLM includes labeling it as Marxist.

    I imagine you're approaching this from a republican viewpoint and aren't supportive of the intent of the original movement.

    I agree the world is full of conspiracy nuts but the problem is they've found a voice through social media and they are making themselves heard. This has all been enabled by the support of Trump and his dangerous rhetoric.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/politics/trump-conspiracy-theorists-qanon/index.html Trump may be stupid but that doesn't mean he isn't dangerous.
     
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I am actually approaching from the viewpoint that the founders of the organization are professed trained Marxists and "superversed on, sort of, ideological theories". It doesn't matter if "[m]any Americans, few of whom would identify as Marxists, support Black Lives Matter, drawn to its message of anti-racism" because as I said they are just useful idiots to the organization. If one supports the anti-racism of the phrase "black lives matter" great, but then create your own slogan like "stop police brutality of young black men" or some such and start your own movement. By attaching themselves to BLM they are knowingly or unwittingly supporting the Marxist goals of the BLM founders and co-founders. And I like the founding principles of the United States and will never support such an organization.

    Please elaborate on how Trump and/or his rhetoric is "dangerous".
     
  8. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    You still need to view BLM for what it is at the core and from where it originated, because that's still what ultimately drives it. The fact that a lot of people don't really know about it and are projecting their ideas into it and viewing it from their POV makes it that much more problematic. It results in such mass stupidity as "abolish and/or defund all police" being widely supported and agitated for, where people doing it are either naive beyond belief or outright stupid thinking that that is something that is going to be beneficial to them in any possible way.

    Edit: Ninja'd by BTA.
     
  9. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    BTA, forgive me if I don't address all your points at once. I will certainly address Trumps dangerous rhetoric further down this post.

    According to wikipedia, "Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a decentralized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality and all racially motivated violence against Black people.[2][3][4][5] While Black Lives Matter can primarily be understood as a decentralized social movement, an organization known simply as Black Lives Matter[a] exists as a decentralized network with about 16 chapters in the United States and Canada. The broader movement and its related organizations typically advocate against police violence towards black people, as well as for various other policy changes considered to be related to black liberation.[10]"

    Whether this was intended to to corroborate or negate my point, it is exactly what I'm trying to say.

    I completely agree that abolishing the police is a very bad idea and I think the term "defund the polices" is misleading. That whole idea should be converted into retraining the police with a critical look at how racism is affecting the actions of the police officers who've been allowed to get away with targeting and murdering certain individuals, with no consequences. This is an issue in both the States and Canada. In Canada there is a significant amount of racism directed towards our indigenous population and has also inspired the movement for Indigenous Lives Matter.

    --

    Oh and I just realised that I totally posted this in the wrong forum. Sorry about that. I'm not used to sharing my political beliefs in a forum so I thought I'd try something new. Feel free to move this conversation if you want to. Also it makes sense that the whole "how trump is dangerous" conversation can be in a different thread although a few things tie in with BLM issues. I'll address that later.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2020
  10. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    Ah yes, unlike all those people in fringe groups who openly identify as racists and bigots... :rolleyes: What people personally identify as is rather irrelevant in the grand scope of things (despite the modern rhetoric). It's actions that define people.

    I think it's also wrong to simply look at where a movement originated and claim that it's what the group stands for and all the extremists "aren't true supporters" or that its actions shouldn't be criticized because it's virtuous at its core. As movements gain popularity, they get exploited and perverted by people who want to use them to support their own personal goals and beliefs. We've learned all these lessons before.

    Feminists were originally women fighting for equal rights but some of the ideas they push now are downright toxic, to use their own term. The ideology is so prevalent now that most people can't even question it anymore for fear of being ostracized.

    MGTOW were just a few dudes who were fed up with the idea that every guy needs to do the whole song and dance of courting women to create a nuclear family and live the "American dream", but the movement is now filled with misogynists and incels with downright dangerous ideas.

    Red Pill ideology originally tried to bring to light that men also suffer from many inequalities and have plenty of their own problems that feminism completely ignores despite their message of "equality", but every woman-hating wanker now calls himself a "red piller", completely invalidating any good arguments they might have had.

    Antifa started as a push-back to literal fascism and is now probably one of the most fascistic groups in existence. They're basically a terrorist group and a general menace to society.

    In the same vein, BLM movement started with good intentions, but it's irresponsible to claim that the group as a whole doesn't have problems. People use it as an excuse to spread even more racism, not to mention all the senseless rioting and violence.

    I'm not saying that any of the issues presented by the modern social movements are invalid. Something definitely needs to happen with the police and justice system in the US (probably starting with the de-privatization of prisons). There are many social issues in need of attention. But that doesn't excuse the actions of people who vaguely align themselves with movements who are trying to resolve those issues.
     
  11. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Just as an aside to this, Wikipedia is not the best source to quote on such controversial subjects as I can attest from personal experience that even certain infinitely less important subjects there are completely under editorial and editing control of various long-standing cliques and editors who have made it their mission in life to immediately negate and/or delete any writing on the subject that is not their own or approved by them. In theory, anyone can contribute and edit Wikipedia. In practice, only a very select few editors maintain complete control over certain subjects and immediately remove any edits not in line with their views.

    As I mentioned in our private convo, the thread is actually fine in both forums since it is both a political as well as social issue, and more.
     
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  12. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I don't claim that the group as a whole doesn't have problems. I feel that the good intentions that started the BLM, have become warped into political tools. I also know that there are groups that are still working towards the original movement with a focus on peace. A friend of mine in calgary has been interviewed several times on the news recently in support of positive change towards racism. He grew up in Victoria and he suffered greatly for the color of his skin despite being highly polite, well-spoken, educated, and well dressed.

    Noted* and I agree however I think that it's neither far right or far left biased so I used it for now
     
  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It is NOT really decentralized. To become an official chapter of BLM you have to apply to the original BLM and organize with "shared principles"; so every official chapter has to be vetted and approved by the original.

    I do not agree that BLM ever had good intentions; it was always designed to be a Marxist tool.
     
  14. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Can you elaborate? All I see is you stamping your foot down with this statement, with no clear context as to why you believe this.
     
  15. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I think it is clear from the evidence:
    1. The founders of BLM are self-professed trained Marxists. So they were looking for a tool. And found it originally in Trayvon Martin of all people and then even worse in Michael Brown. Their founding raisons d'etre were basically hoaxes portraying young black men as victims when in both cases they assaulted the people who killed them. But it worked great as a tool to pit identity groups against each other.

    2. BLM doesn't give a damn about black lives. They only care about black lives that were taken by a different identity group regardless of whether it was justified or not. Again, to pit identity groups against each other, not because they care about the lives lost. The unjustified killing of black people by racists is a very small problem in the United States. The unjustified killing of black people by police is also a small problem in the United States. A far greater problem is the killing of black people by other black people, but that doesn't serve the Marxist agenda. Thus, a Marxist tool.
     
  16. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    https://theconversation.com/the-bac...tter-is-just-more-evidence-of-injustice-85587

    I did a fact and bias check on the above site to use it as a resource.

    BTA I believe your statement is biased. By blatantly saying that BLM is a Marxist tool it allows you to effectively sweep the issue under the rug and not address the very real issues of racism and police brutality.
     
  17. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    Yes, but by aiming the focus at the problem of police brutality, while it's a very real problem, they distract the people from far greater problems, which don't (necessarily) stem from racism, and thus don't serve the right agenda.
     
  18. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perhaps I am biased, but I disagree that I have swept or attempted to sweep the issues of racism or police brutality under the rug. I have even said above that if someone wants to protest these things then start their own movement, simply because by attaching themselves to BLM, they are taking up and supporting BLM's Marxist agenda.
     
  19. WickedPrince Gems: 7/31
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    I haven't read all of this but I support BTA on this. I don't consider myself opposed to what BLM says they stand for when they talk about equal rights and fair treatment; but I don't support any Marxist/Communist organization. I don't support any organization that thinks that violence and rioting and looting will solve anything. The people who got the most done for the African American people across American history were people like Malcom X who protested non-violently and TAUGHT us to be better people. The current crop of people struggling for "equal rights" don't want equal rights they want a shift so that they get superior rights to the rest of us. People who murder their own because they aren't selling violent extremism aren't the people we need to listen to or cater to.

    IMHO the big problem isn't the increasing police violence; it's the insanity being caused by people spending half a year being isolated by Covid19. I live in the northern-most part of Mid-Western US; we see people go nuts after a long 3-month winter of isolation; now the entire country has been through forced isolation for most of six months with no end in sight and everybody is a bit insane.

    "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

    --

    I am going to amend my previous statement after reading more comments above. I agree that a large part of this rioting and violence is part of an agenda that has nothing to do with Black Lives. The people perpetrating this agenda are using BLM as a vehicle to sell their violent take-over of the US. And the extremism in what is going on is at least partially due to the isolation of Covid-19 IMHO.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2020
  20. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Ok, if you throw away the label "BLM", and focus on the topic of Police brutality against african americans and other minorities, do you acknowledge there is a problem?
     
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