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# of attacks per round

Discussion in 'Neverwinter Nights (Classic)' started by Apeman, May 3, 2005.

  1. Apeman Gems: 25/31
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    This may very well be a big Newbie question but bear with me. I'm currently playing the shadows of Udrentide campaing with a fighter(4)/wizard(3) and he still has only one attack per round. And when I thought about it I can't remember a character from the OC that had more than one attack per round.

    I'm pretty much used to the BG series but so I might be a bit spoiled how can I make more attacks per round, I'm getting my @ss kicked by enemies who have multiple attacks per round.

    In other words what are the factors concerning attacks per round. My f/w is wielding a katana of the north with the weapon focus skill, the weapon specialisation skill and the exotic weapon skill.
     
  2. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    Your number of attacks per round is based upon your Base Attack Bonus (BAB) which is derived from your classes and level. Additions such as strength bonuses and magic weapons affect your final attack bonus, but do not count for determining your BAB for purposes of number of attacks. The algorithim is to subtract five from your BAB. If the number is one or more, you gain a second attack. Subtract five from the second attack BAB (10 less than your original BAB) and if the number is positive you get a third attack. Same for the fourth attack. No character can receive more than four attacks due to BAB (note: spells such as Haste can give an additional attack above and beyond those granted by BAB). What this means is that a character gets a second attack at +6 BAB, a third attack at +11 BAB and a fourth attack at +16 BAB.

    Thus, your character has a +4 BAB from your four fighter levels and a +1 BAB from your 3 Wizard levels. This gives you a +5 BAB, one short of the +6 BAB needed for a second attack. However, the good news for you is that you will get a second attack at your next level-up, regardless of which class you level-up in. Fighter always grants +1 BAB per level and Wizard grants +1 BAB per two levels (round down). As your next Wizard level would be fourth, you will go to a +2 BAB from your Wizard levels, and +4 from your Fighter levels, giving the +6 BAB needed for a second attack.

    You can improve your chances in melee by taking advantage of your Wizard spellcasting. Are you using buff spells, or are you wasting your spell slots on direct damage spells? With your character, all your spells should be devoted to buffs. Try the following spells to improve your combat prowress: Protection from alignment (+2 deflection bonus to AC), Mage Armor (will give, at the very least, a +1 Dodge bonus even if you are wearing armor), Flame Weapon (an additional 1d4+3 damage to every one of your melee attacks), Bull's Strength and Ghostly Visage (damage reduction of 5/+1) [unless you are a specialist mage you cannot cast all of these spells, drop Ghostly Visage until you level up to 4th level Wizard]. Since most of these buffs (except Ghostly Visage) are long duration buffs (3 hours game time), you are best off wearing armor to improve your AC. After resting, take off the armor (this will be easier to do if you assign your armor to a hotkey), cast your long term buffs, then put your armor back on.

    Hope that helps.

    [edited to provide advice on spell usage]
     
  3. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Just to finish this off: is there any limitation to your number of attacks per round other than your BAB? Let's say, you're level 40 in HotU, single class warrior pool character. This would make 6 attacks from BAB +26 at level 26, then 7 at 32 (after 30, you get only +1 BAB per 2 levels IIRC), for 7 total. But I've heard someone saying something about 5 attacks and no more.
     
  4. Apeman Gems: 25/31
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    Thanks a lot Khemsa, I was almost quitting due to multiple deaths in the stinger warrens. Pity I'm a long way off my level though :(
     
  5. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    Apeman, worry not; eventually, you may get even more attacks that you were used to in BG :)
    You can't get more than 4 attack with one weapon without the use of spells (i.e. haste). However, an off-hand weapon or a double weapon (which counts as pretty much the same) can give you up to two more, to a maximum of 6 attacks before spells. Monks are a bit of an exception - they get a new attack/round after every 3rd attack point, not 5th.

    Any class, however, will not get extra attacks after level 20, although the Base attack bonus (BAB) improves
     
  6. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Now, that sucks. They probably meant more balance. But how is it balance to cut the number of attacks down so much that the difference between warriors and non-warriors becomes elusive? With the right buffs, wizards can match warriors and clerics can outdo both of them.

    In BG2, you didn't really have many attacks, but they were all with the same bonus.
     
  7. ArtEChoke Gems: 17/31
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    nah. Even with Tenser's Transformation, a wizard would get mashed into paste by a fighter of the same level.
     
  8. Gothmog

    Gothmog Man, a curious beast indeed! ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Oh, yes, what fun it is to see a monk with 10 attacks per round, each doing about 30 damage :D

    It's really fun, making 3 attack sequences, first with 4 attack rolls, followed by two 3 rolls.


    Here's how it's done. In fact, it's a bug, but it works anyway. First you mix a fighter class in the first 20 levels of your monk (BAB after 20th level follows Epic BAB progression equal for all classes - 1/2 levels). That way you can get 16BAB instead of 15 monk class gives. Instantly this gives 4 attacks with any type of weapon. Second, you are dual-wielding kamas. Improved two weapon fighting gives two off-hand attacks, increasing it to 6. Furthermore, kamas are monk's speciality weapon, thus gaining favored attacks per round. Haste + flurry add to all of this, making a total of 10 attacks per round :D

    The idea is that quantity beats quality. Even in OC, you'll have trouble with extra-high AC monsters (Dracolich), not to mention PvP multiplayer. But, every natural 20 hits.... so, even if you're unable to hit it with anything less than 20, you're still going to hit often enough.
    Alternative would be to take just a few monk levels and focus on fighter-weapon master levels. It certainly adds in the melee skills, but it makes less of a well rounded character. The saving throws suffer big time, which is quite important since it's a straight-on melee type guy.

    An idea, anyhow.
     
  9. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    Chevalier,

    As the Shamen said, number of attacks from BAB is limited to four. I would emphasize that the only BAB considered for number of attack purposes is the BAB you gain pre-Epic (levels one to 20). Therefore, the only time one should multiclass to gain increased BAB for number of attacks is in the first 20 levels.

    NWN really just follows PnP where the spell casting classes are simply better than non-spell casting classes. Fighters are poor fighters compared to a properly buffed Wizard and cannot hold a candle to a buffed Cleric. As Gothmog noted, because of a bug in the engine a Fighter 4 / Monk 16 dual wielding Kamas is a Cuisanart with his unholy number of attacks. Despite what ArtEChoke thinks, straight fighters have always been 3rd class citizens in D&D and NWN simply reflects this. Actually, fighters do better in NWN because some of the most abusive spell caster tricks are not included in NWN (a Cleric with the Persistant spell metamagic is a combat monster, no fighter can even compete)
     
  10. ArtEChoke Gems: 17/31
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    You must be joking, this game is entirely geared towards fighters.

    Devastating critical?

    Buff up all you want, you'll still be paste.
     
  11. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    A lot depends on the world your playing in. Only in very high magic worlds populated with uber items do fighters have a chance. Otherwise, Time Stop, Maximized IGMS, Maximized IGMS, Maximized IGMS, Maximized IGMS, dead fighter, "next!"

    The Exalted Sorceress was designed for occasions where the unimaginable happens and a fighter gets a jump on the Sorcerer. Auto Still Spell combined with (normal, non-magical) Full Plate, Tower Shield, and normal buffing provides an AC very few fighters can even dream of hitting without uber items. Maxed out Discipline makes Knockdown a very unlikely possibility.

    Arcane spellcasters are now, and always have been, the most powerful characters in D&D and NWN. The OC, SoU and HotU are sufficiently easy so that any class can finish them. Fighters have very little problem dealing with most monsters in the game. It is in PvP that the hopelessness of fighters becomes apparant. The most powerful builds in that environment feature Sorcerers, arcane shapeshifters (Dragon Kin), or Monks with very high SR. Nary a fighter in sight. Sorry.
     
  12. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Fighters only get Weapon Specialisation and lots of feats. But my good old pally gets Bull's Strength at level what? 9? And for both damage and AB. Not to mention Divine Favour for another +1 AB/dmg per three levels up to five. Or the sonic spell for another +1 AB/+2 dmg. Then there is the Holy Avenger spell (+5 enchantment, about 2d6 bonus damage vs evil, Dispel Magic on hit) which seems to stack with whatever your weapon already has. Add Divine Shield, Divine Power and some nice items. Against undead, Bless Weapon for a +2 AB and 2d6 dmg.

    At level 15, I had about +30 to hit and I could deliver 30 damage without a critical hit, nor even a specially good damage roll. Criticals approached 80. Undead creatures are immune to criticals, so they got only about 50 damage from a longsword. :D

    What would I get with a fighter? Maybe a katana Weaponmaster with Improved Criticals could compete. Or an Assassin but only with lots of Sneak Attack damage. Or a hit & run Arcane Archer on Haste. Just maybe. Still, a well-built cleric could own me in no time and a really well-made wizard would have no problem. But a straight fighter? Keep dreaming.
     
  13. Bovine_Knight Gems: 2/31
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    The thing about critical threat range is that you have to make sure you can hit most enemies with the numbers inside your range. What's the use of a 10-20 x3 critical threat range when your enemy can only be hit on a natural twenty? If you want balanced PvP, I suggest you play Bastions of War - Time Stop is disabled and IGMS and mages in general are nerfed greatly. At least 60% of the server plays fighters or rogues, and cleric buffs have been nerfed to decrease their combat potency. Enhancement bonuses to weapons are capped at +4, and immunity items and damage reduction items are not allowed.

    And Khemsa, you'd be suprised what a Dev Critting Half-Orc Barbarian with Bard and RDD levels can do to a level 40 mage in BoW. 53 DC Devastating Critical, anyone?
     
  14. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    Bovine_Knight: Say "Moo!" and be a good point cow.

    Devastating Critical is good, and extremely annoying, but doesn't quite add up to what a good Wizard or Druid can do in epic levels.

    ... Especially Mestil's Acid Sheath or Dragon shape...

    Epic Dodge is also extremely annoying if you're trying to hit someone.

    Every class has it's "uber thing that pwns every other class" - and quite doesn't.
     
  15. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    Chevalier,

    A Paladin is quite a different story from a fighter. Having buff spells, great saves and smite makes for a much better fighter than a Fighter. Throw in CoT to make things even nicer.

    Bovine Knight,

    If you nerf all the good spells and still allow Devastating Critical it is not surprising that fighters predominate. This does not sound like a balanced world, but rather one that favors fighters hugely and penalizes casters. How can it be balanced when a world takes away the Wizard's goodies but leaves the Fighter with his? Sounds like that world has built in a huge bias in favor of fighters. A truly balanced world would see approximately equal numbers of each character class. If fighters predominate in this world there is a reason: they benefit highly from doing so. No thanks.
     
  16. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    Khemsa: BoW has been balanced the best out of ANY NWN module. It's a great server, very balanced - playing Wizards is just more difficult - mostly on the knowing when to use a spell side.
     
  17. ArtEChoke Gems: 17/31
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    When I said its a fighters game, I mean the all inclusive, "melee guy" which includes fighters, paladins, rangers (if they go the strength route) and barbarians.

    it doesn't matter what buffs *anyone* has, it doesn't matter how much your paladin does on a crit, or normal swing, if you get hit with devastating critical, you don't take damage per say, you just explode. End of story.

    I played a dual wielding Paladin into the epic levels (dual-wielding longswords). Once I got to the devastating critical feat, I never *ever* bothered to buff except when facing down an opponent that couldn't be critted.

    Regarding that direction, yes fighters are better than Paladins, who are in turn (possibly) bested by Barbarians. Paldins spread their stats over too many attributes, fighters can concentrate on strength alone if they want. That along with weapon specialization (yeah I know people play it down, but 2 damage is equal to 4 points of strength, its like a permanent bulls strength potion) more than make up for the lack of, "buffs." Buffs, I might add, which are more than easily available through potions.

    Magic, in my opinion, becomes complete crap at the high levels, it doesn't keep up. The epic spells are terrible. I was endlessly frustrated with an epic level wizard when I'd cast hellball and everything is immune to elemental damage, or fire off greater ruin, and land it for a lousy 60 damage. Garbage. Magic is way too easily countered in NWN.
     
  18. Khemsa Gems: 7/31
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    Unless your world nerfs Time Stop (usually by banning it) and IGMS (either banning or giving out items with DR to Magic Damage -- items which must be created by the editor, such items do not come stock in the game) then fighters cannot compete.

    Please, ArtEChoke, explain to me how any fighter type can deal with Time Stop, Maximized IGMS, Maximized IGMS, Maximized IGMS? You can have Devastating Critical, but once I cast Time Stop, you are toast.

    I do agree with you that the stock offensive Epic Spells are very poor. Epic Warding and Epic Mage Armor are nice, but, as you note, Greater Ruin and Hellball are underpowered (as is the case in PnP also). The Epic Spells available through the PRC are better, and even have some very choice spells. However, 9th level spells are generally a better bet than Epic Spells.
     
  19. ArtEChoke Gems: 17/31
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    Devastating Critical: Longbow

    Actually, look, I'm not trying to knock mages (or whatever floats your boat).

    I don't even *like* melee characters. They're boring... really boring.

    All I'm saying is, Bioware, "Diabloed" the hell out of this game. Its that simple. Its a fighters game, I don't think it should be, but it is. Its engineered for the lowest common denominator.

    Devastating critical is stupid. It shouldn't exist. Epic level spells should be the end-all of damage. Balance be damned. But as it is, melee muscle-heads take it all.

    My comments were primarily geared toward Chev's assertation that a fully buffed Wizard could somehow out-melee a fighter. Which is completely absurd. A fighter *should* lose against a wizard, time-stop or not. It just so happens, if the fighter reaches him first, he probably won't (or if he just cheeses out with Dev Crit: Longbow...)

    [ May 09, 2005, 20:20: Message edited by: ArtEChoke ]
     
  20. Taza

    Taza Weird Modmaker Veteran

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    A fully buffed, well-built wizard CAN outmelee abouts any fighter. Dev Crit or no dev crit.

    Getting the required fortitude save isn't that hard - and a wizard can be easily immune to criticals anyway in those levels.
     
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