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Melf's Minute Meteors/Energy Blades question

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Xyx, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. Xyx Gems: 5/31
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    This question applies to effects that create a ranged weapon that you cannot switch away from, including Melf's Minute Meteors and Energy Blades (but not Fire Seeds.)

    If you are attacked in melee, and you're holding a ranged weapon, your opponent gets a 4-point bonus (or you get a 4-point penalty to your AC, I forget which, the result is comparable.)

    Now the question is... does this also apply to the meteors and the energy blades? If so, then not being able to switch to a melee weapon is a bit of a problem, and might warrant moving away from your attacker (as opposed to standing still and throwing things.)
     
  2. Yoshimo's Heart Gems: 13/31
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    NOt sure though I would guess that you get the penalty. JUst remember at a certain point (certainly by ToB) your AC mostly does not matter since it will not be high enough to stop enemies from hitting you and at that point you just don't care about a -4.
     
  3. Gafgorkion Gems: 4/31
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    I am fairly sure that the penalty for using ranged weapons in melee combat was not actually implemented into the BG series.

    A lot of things from pen and paper were not actually implemented. For example, wisdom based saving throws and elven resistance to charm and sleep were never implemented even though the instruction manual mentions them. I don't think ranged penalties were implemented either.
     
  4. Shaitan

    Shaitan Always forgive your enemies; it annoys them so

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    Huh?? You get -4 to attackrolls.
     
  5. Gafgorkion Gems: 4/31
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    Are you absolutely sure of that? I know it says that in the manual, but a lot of things in the manual were not actually implemented. An easy way to check is to turn on the dice rolls. I think I did that once many years ago, and the rolls did not change, so the penalty is not implemented.
     
  6. Xyx Gems: 5/31
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    While there are indeed plenty of creatures with THAC0 so low it no longer matters, there are also plenty of creatures that still benefit from a +4 on their hit rolls, and I wouldn't want to give it to them for no real reason.

    Either way, simply backing off can produce wonderful results by messing up the opponent's initiative, regardless of their THAC0 (though perhaps affected by their Speed Factor.) So I guess I'll stick with that.

    Good idea. I just tried it, and it certainly did change. The helpful GNOLL01 (normally +0 to hit) suddenly gained a +4 to its hit rolls. And for Melf's Minute Meteors as well.

    Moderately interesting story...

    As part of my testing I CLUA'd in a bunch of nasty critters and then Ctrl+Q'd them all into the party to check out their THAC0: Abazigal (-27), Firkraag (-12), Demogorgon (-22 or so), the Ravager (-16), and Melissan (-17).

    When I was done checking their stats I killed one of the idiots near the Planar Sphere (Tirthold, wants to make build a temple around it and charge admission) to see if it would cost me any Rep. It didn't. What it did do was aggro all the other people around me. Abazigal immediately chopped one to bits, and Firekraag burned the rest to a crisp. Except for one beggar, who, despite having a red circle, stayed still and was ignored (until he got caught in the blast anyway.)

    I then Ctrl+Q'd a 7th critter into the party while the game was paused, and then I reloaded before kicking anyone out. After loading, I had an anonymous 7th party member that couldn't be kicked out, but the Reform Party screen wouldn't go away, so I had to Alt+F4 out of the game. The End.
     
  7. SlickRCBD Gems: 25/31
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    Don't forget that the ToB load screens mention the penalty.
     
  8. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    In my BGT game, when a character does not have a melee weapon equipped, the enemy attacking in melee gets +4 to hit AND +4 damage bonus. For instance, when Imoen is attacked by a xvart in BG1 part, while holding her bow, the xvart gets +4 to hit and she is skewered for 1d6 (normal short sword) plus 4 damage. Any character equipped by sling, dart, throwing dagger, bows, crossbows, etc. AND magically created ranged weapons (MMM, Energy blades, Sol's searing orb, fire seeds) is in danger in melee, especially in low levels +4 to hit and damage may be lethal.

    If I am not mistaken, +4 damage bonus is also multiplied by backstabs too. I noticed, when I backstab shortbow holding kobolds, my character does massive damage. (20+ dmg easily, chunking the critter) Not so massive damage when backstabbing the shortsword wielding kobolds. (10+ dmg tops, still kills it though) so when my character is scouting the area hiding in shadows, I always go for the ranged weapon dudes for backstabs. Backstab gives +4 to hit, enemy using ranged weapon gives +4 to hit, (a total +8!) and the +4 damage is multiplied by backstab too:Sweet! This is also crucial when playing against SCS opponents who backstab. When an enemy thief goes invisible, I equip all my characters with melee weapons:or else they will suffer worse than others.

    Another thing I noticed, when casting Spell Revisions spells of cause wounds and harm spells, if the priest attacks an opponent without a melee weapon equipped, the victim takes 4 bonus damage too, BUT as normal damage, not magical:

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    Here, my evil priest attacks the druidess who has no melee weapon equipped with his harm spell. SCS version does 150 damage, save vs spells at -5 for half. Here you see that the priest gets +8 to hit. +4 is from the spell itself, +4 is for druidess not having a melee weapon. The harm spell does only 75 damage, as you can see as druidess rolls a save vs spells. However she takes +4 damage, which is melee damage not magical, on top of that, all because she has no melee weapon equipped.

    Another example:

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    Here, the priest attacks a high lvl barbarian w/o a melee weapon with cause wounds spell. Note that the priest gets +10 to hit. Why? +4 from the spell's bonus to hit, +4 because barbarian lacks a melee weapon to parry, and +2 because the barbarian wears a chainmail, which is weak against bludgeoning attacks and gives attacker +2 bonus if attacked with a bludgeon weapon. Barbarian takes 40 magic damage from the spell. Notice that he takes 3 extra damage, which is actually the 4 extra damage because he has no melee weapon equipped. BUT, since he is a high level barbarian he resists the pyschial damage.

    I think this shows that the extra +4 damage on victims w/o melee weapon is valid and is pyschial damage. If you want to try, go attack commoners and noblemen w/o a weapon. Use your puny dagger. You'll see you get +4 to hit and will occasionaly do 7 or 8 damage without a critical, or strength bonus.

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    Another test, this time priest is the subject, he has Sol's searing orb equipped, which is a magically created ranged weapon. The sorcerer guy attacks the priest with his plain quarterstaff. He has no str or to hit bonuses to speak of. Note that the sorcerers gets +4 to hit and does 10 damage, which is actually 1d6+4 damage. He has done maximum damage to the evil priest.

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    The evil priest immediately retealites with his Searing orb and 'throws' it to the attacking mage. He has no DEX bonus so normally he gets only +4 to hit due to spell. Since they are in melee, you see that the priest attacks with a -4 penalty. This means he gets an original of -8 penalty to hit with a ranged weapon in melee! Regardless, he hits and burns and blinds the attacking sorcerer with his searing orb. Major ouchies.

    On backstab:

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    Here, our willy halfling assasin backstabs the evil priest with his quietus+4 dagger. He gets +4 to hit from dagger, +4 to hit for backstab. The priest has a flail+2 and shield equipped so he does not suffer ranged-in-melee penalty. The halfling's final attack bonus is +7, modified by priest's heavy armor. He does reasonable damage for a dagger.

    [​IMG]
    By lunarr87 at 2012-03-08

    This time, the priest has a sling equipped. Note that halfling assasin's attack bonus is whopped to +11, an extra +4 all because the priest does not have a melee weapon equipped. The damage has been increased quite a lot too, the halfling does nearly twice as much damage as before, because the +4 to damage bonus gets multiplied too! The pries suffers an extra 4x7=28 damage, all because he has no melee weapon equipped. He also fails his save vs death against quietus's poison, and falls uncouncious, which is irrelevant but fun.

    I hope this demonstrates how dangerous it is to not to have a melee weapon equipped when someone attacks you in melee. Have your poor mage equip that puny dagger or staff, even though he can't hit anything with it, he needs the weapon to have a better odds to survive in melee. A backstab against a victim who has no melee weapon equipped, is EXTREMELY lethal, both for increased to hit chance and the extra damage multiplied!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  9. 8people

    8people 8 is just another way of looking at infinite ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG] Is that your normal naming scheme in the pictures? :p
     
  10. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    Lol, ofcourse not, these characters were created solely for testing. Uthu and trte names were generated by randomly dancing fingers on keyboard. Other guys are self-explanatory for simplicity. :shake: Also I had a monk named 'KickA**' for testing new monk HLAs and the like. :p
     
  11. Xyx Gems: 5/31
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    Indeed, the +4 bonus is to hit AND damage. It's worse than I thought. +4 damage isn't as easily ignored even in the later stages of the game.
     
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