Malazan discussion beware of spoilers

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I have been wanting to do this for ages but basically been too lazy and most of the people on this forum were so slow in reading that I was too far ahead but now most of you guys have almost caught up. I think it is time to have discussions and analysis of this wondrous series of books.

What I want to discuss is who is the bad guy in the series? How does even evil work here? The Crippled God of course has most of the time been an ******* but why? A bunch of power mad mortals tears him from his universe/real/world slams him into the ground and breaks him up. On top of that a whole bunch of native gods and ascendants show up to chain you down. I would be rather pissed off too. If you look at his philosophy and the religion around him I cant help but be reminded of Christianity. The glorifying of weakness, the promise of a paradisaic afterlife the idea that you deserve to pay for your sins now to get a reward after you die. I think the Crippled God is Erikson's version of Jesus/Christianity, his take and/or criticism.

Ok, this was rather garbled and I bring up many things without really explaining myself much, no different from the books then.

 

Maybe Joacquin IS Steven Erikson.

Maybe the great thing about these books is that there is no easy distinction between good and evil.

 

I could not disagree more with that, HB. There is a strong moral core of light at work, which is surrounded by a vast darkness in Erikson's work. The more darkness Erikson shows us on the outside, the brighter the light shines at its core. He does it in every book, except maybe the Bonehunters, unless I'm missing something. I would agree with that though, if we were discussing Glen Cook, but then I've not read all that much of his work.

 

Chandos - who is evil then? There's no clearcut "Dark Lord" in this like there is in something like Terry Brooks or, even Tolkien.

 

Beware: spoilers ahead
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The Tiste Edur are the current villians, at least as far as I have gotten into the story. And they know they are. There's that dreadful scene where they are forcing mothers to throw their babies into the fires. They are every bit as evil as anything in Tolkien. They all serve that Ruland dude, who is a complete bastard. He's cut a deal with the Crippled God, who is getting his rocks off making life miserable as he can for innocent mortals. Then there's Laseen, the Empress - she's an evil bitch as well; then there was that perverted dude, who was screwing all those young girls; the one who was using Felisin the Younger. I just can't think if his name. That's just to name a few. I could add a few more names later...the point is there is evil at almost every turn in the story. Maybe there's so much of it that it seems "normal" in Erikson's world.

 

How far through the story are you exactly, Chandos? Before I start offering any responses to your comments.

 

Chandos, Edur are just mere mortals, tossing babies into fires is something we could read in the news about tomorrow as something American soldiers done in Iraq or Russian in Chechnya. Horrible as it is, that and all the other examples you listed are just normal human wickedness. It is a world with ascendants and deities around every corner and when we are talking evil the examples we see are the same **** that goes on everywhere.

Fantasy often have one big bad villain be it Sauron, Shai'Tan or something else but in Erikson it is seems to be humanity itself who gets to represent evil. When I think about, dont think there is an evil overlord in any of the really good fantasy I have read.

Anyone else noticed that Erikson, especially in the later books do a lot of social and political commentary. Especially most of the things around Lether and the Letherii.

 

HB - I finished The Bonehunters last month and should be reading Reaper's Gale within the next few months. OK, let me turn your question around on you guys to illustrate my point about the nature of good and evil in Erikson: Where do you find "goodness?" Just where is the light in Erikson's dark world? Better yet - What do you consider to be the most memorable scenes that illustrate the nature of good in Erikson's world?

You are right about Erikson's sudden ramblings in the more recent books. It was really distracting in The Bonehunters; like those drawn out scenes with the Priest of D'rek in Malaz City.

 

The goodness is as all pervasive as the "evil". In the friendships the characters find, in the sacrifices made just as with the evil the goodness comes from the normal human beings and are the things all of us are capable of doing and experiencing. This is I think the biggest strenth of the entire series, that despite there being all these "super heroes/villains" it is the mortals that stand for both good and evil and around which the entire story revolves. I would say the Malazan books are among the most humane fantasy books I have read.

The what you call rambling scenes with the priests of D'rek I think was there to illustrate, and this might be a bit of a spoiler although not of the story itself but rather how the world works. The gods in this world are as much if not more in the power of their worshippers than the other way around. For D'rek (and this is mostly speculation) to be able to follow her own agenda she had to get rid of her priesthood as they kept forcing her to do stuff and follow paths she didnt want to. A god is a mirror of its worshippers and are generally powerless to set their own theology. D'rek got tired of it it seems and killed all her priests and there are many more examples of gods if not killing their worshippers doing their best to ignore them until they go away. Anomander Rake is a shining example of that, he is a god to the Tiste Andii but he refuses to act like a god and is there somewhat free. He could have a lot more power but a lot less freedom if he had cultivated that worship.

 

If we can agree on this, which we do, then why is it necessary to have the evil boss God, or Dark Overlord, from whom the source of evil originates?

 

Hardly an Overlord.

 

I would still say that there is no evil overlord boss god. All of the gods are scheming and selfish. I think that by the end of Reaper's Gale, you may have a revised view of who is on whose side and who is good and who is evil. I don't think I would describe the Tiste Edur as evil. Is Fiddler good? Is Karsa Orlong good? Who is good?

 

Paran! And the comment is made throughout the Bonehunters that he is out to "save the world." The Edur ARE evil. And they even realize that Rhulad is evil, which is why some of them are hoping that one of the champions kills him off. Let me ask you this: What does a group of individuals have to do before they are considered "evil?" The Edur are as bad as they come. Why do you think Trull Sengor was shorn and now fights against the tyranny of his brother? Fid is not evil, nor is Quick, nor is Krupe, Cutter, Ghost Hands, Whiskeyjack. Karsa is no longer evil. He started out with misconceptions, and he has grown throughout his quest, which is why he wishes to tell his father "that he was right." And Karsa then also comments that he has "nothing to say to his Grandfather." Remember how that was reversed in House of Chains? In the Bonehunters, Karsa is also helping the "victims" of the Edur. The point is that Rhlad is corrupt, and his corruption is speading throughout his people.

Cotillion has become the interesting character in the books; I used to think he was an evil character, but now he seems to be working with Paran in preventing the destruction of the world.

 

I still don't think the Tiste Edur are evil. Rhulad Sengar isn't corrupt - he's an unwilling puppet of both the Crippled God and the Letherii. He's pretty much insane, but it would be a harsh call to say he was evil. Like, say Sauron, or Emperor Palpatine.

If the Edur are evil, then so are the Letherii, who are every bit as destructive. And so are the Malazans, and everyone else for that matter.

Karsa Orlong still thinks nothing of killing people who look at him funny. Does this make him evil? Why not?

 

Every single frickin' empire/nation/tribe depicted in the first five books has some deeply rooted, serious flaws. The sort of flaws that result in oppression and bloodshed.

 

So the societies are evil, but not the individuals?

 

The guy who stole his brother's wife and has raped her repeatedly? And then he ordered the execution of his other brother for disagreeing with him? Trull knew that Rhulad was evil and he even tells him as much on the quest to retrieve the sword for the warlock king. Sorry for disagreeing with you, HB, but in my opinion Rhulad is MORE evil than any of Tolkien's characters, including Sauron, because he's screwing over his own family, and that has nothing to do with being a puppet of the Crippled God. Again, how far does an individual have to go to be considered evil by you?

Show me in the text where Karsa thinks nothing of killing those who are not his enemies in the more recent books? However, you are one up on me in the books, so I may be at a disadvantage in that respect.

 

Yeah, Karsa Orlong really doesn't give a sh*t if you're not his enemy. He's like Moose Mason from Archie comics. He'll slug you if you bump into him or are blocking his way but other than that, he just can't be bothered to kick your ass.

I'm at Bonehunters btw. Reaper's Gale hasn't made it into regular-sized paperback edition here yet.

Also, has anyone read that Malazan spinoff novel? I think it was called Night of Knives? Not by Erikson.

 

Rhulad is pretty much under some sort of spell of the Crippled God via that cursed sword. He's no more evil than someone who doesn't feed his kids because he's been kidnapped by terrorists.

Or to put it another way, he is as evil as Gollum.

Sure, Karsa only kills his enemies. But anyone who looks at him funny is an enemy.

Icarium kills people. Is he evil? He's under as much of a spell as Rhulad is too.

 

hehe good point HB, objection withdrawn

I'm with you on Rhulad too. He was basically just one of those kids that wanted more attention but not really evil. Most of the stuff he's doing now he doesn't even want as you can tell from his conversations with his manservant. What was the guy's name again? I forget, it's been a while since Midnight Tides.

Icarium is a whole different story. He's not evil. He's... a force. All the bad stuff he did, he did under that battle rage so you can classify him as insane during that time. When he's coherent, he's a real nice guy.

I can't wait until we find out more about the Forkrul-Assail, from the bits that Erikson has dropped, they seem pretty awesome.