Lack of Divine Intervention

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Well, here's an interesting article. If God does have a plan for certain people it seems like praying doesn't help. In a study involving two groups of heart patients - one who were prayed for and the other not - there was no difference in the recovery rates in the two groups. In fact, the group that knew they were being prayed for did a little bit worse than the group that didn't.

 

Maybe they voted for John Kerry. Or were all gay. Or believed in evolution. God doesn't like those people.

 

My favorite quote was

I was confused by the article. It took my second reading before I realized the study was having people pray for other people whom they didn't know.

I thought the study was trying to disprove the theory that people who "pray" not are "prayed for" do better in surgery.

I think the entire study is crap and hopefully it wasn't taxpayer funded.

 

But He does like to torment them in the afterlife.

 

Ah, but the study doesn't say what happens to them after they die. Surely the whole point is to get into heaven, which is what should have happened to the praying people.

 

Aldeth posted this in AoDA so I assume he wants us to look at it seriously.

Hokay. What does this study prove?

Does it prove that prayer is useless? Does it prove that God wasn't listening? Actually does it prove anything?

 

From a purely psychological point ogf view, it seems that hope is better than certanity. or somethigj along those lines anyway.

 

Nothing personal, Harbs, but I should hope that the point of prayer is something a bit beyond just "getting into heaven" - indeed, I would hope that the entire point of religion is something more than getting into a nice afterlife with vaulted ceilings and gold silverware...

 

As usual, Scrappleface gives this the cold water treatment:

 

Serious answer, then: people who believe in the power of prayer will probably say, simply, that answering those prayers "wasn't in God's plan," hence, no amount of prayer could have changed their fate. Never mind the coincidence that not even one person from the prayer group was excluded from said plan from the big man. Evidently, he had a schedule to keep and none of them were excused. Any number of reasons can be conjured as to why God answered prayer X but chose to ignore prayer Y - people do it every day.

I, however, am not a believer in the power of prayer; at least, not in that way. What's probably much closer to the truth is that the recipient of prayer X simply got lucky, while prayer Y guy just can't catch a break. I don't believe god answers prayers. Prayer seems to me like you're asking God for a favor in exchange for praise and exaltation which, according to my view of God, would insult him more than please him. I think God would find that petty, personally.

I believe in god, but if He exists I don't believe he wants us to be so weak as to believe that our fate hinges on his good graces. I can't imagine a being as powerful as God extending his hand from heaven and removing someone's heart condition simply because "Oh, well since you asked so nicely." I don't know if I would want a God that would do that, to be honest. I couldn't respect him, and if I can't respect him, he has no power or meaning.

I believe (at least partly) that the reason we're here is to persevere and succeed despite the presence or absence of God. So therefore I have no use for prayer - I can manage just fine on my own, sink or swim. At the end of the day, I believe prayer serves only to ease the hearts and minds of the ones doing the praying, nothing more. I think all the "it's part of God's plan" nonsense is just what people who rely heavily on their faith tell themselves and their children in order to cope with life's tendancy to occasionally suck. Not to knock that, mind you - because it certainly works for some people. Just not a cynical *sshole like me.

So prayer, in my belief, can be a very powerful tool. Its benefits, however, don't extend beyond the ones doing the praying.

 

Pretty much agreeing with DR, except for two points.

I think of it more as begging for a favor without giving anything in return, though not quite as bad as that description sounds. Perhaps a plea because it is something that you really really want, because we are nothing more than children (to God). I don't like people that pray over inconsequential things, but praying for someone's happiness or health is good enough.

Only one nit to pick here: the prayed-for feel the love too, if they know about it and believe.

 

Yeah, I guess I can agree with that. Warm fuzzy feelings for all involved, but God doesn't actually change what's naturally going to occur.

Though I disagree with your former point; what God gets in return for the prayer is faith, devotion, and praise. The faithful don't consider that "nothing" in return, and to them, neither does God. According to Judeo-Christian believery, that's what God wants in exchange for answering prayers. That's why we don't do things like sacrifice bulls - God only deals in one form of currency.

Yes, I said believery. That's mah damn word.

 

Yes, that's what I was trying to say...I left out the word "anymore."

I think I agree with your interpretation of prayer as well. Mind over matter, if you will.

[ April 06, 2006, 08:50: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

I have a problem with the very concept that everything fits into God's "plan". When bad things happen to a person, it is generally either an explainable weather phenomenon (in the case of natural disaster) or (more often) is the direct result of someone elses actions. Were it God's will for one man to take the life of another, that would mean that the murderer was as much a victim as his victim since the will of the murderer was superceded by God's will. He will then be punished (possibly put to death, himself) for a crime he did not willingly commit. If the murderer is fulfilling God's will in committing his crime, that means he had no choice. The murderer will be punished for the actions of his body, not the actions of his will.

Long story short, if everything is part of "God's Plan" then free will doesn't exist. Since I know that I have free will, I can either conclude that I am the only being on Earth with free will or God isn't behind every single thing that happens to me in my life. I think it's unlikely that I am the only being on the planet with free will.

 

@Grey Magistrate:
Wow. That was priceless.

@Everyone else:
Cool, a study that actually sounds like it was done properly. Though I would have liked to see a group that knew they weren't being prayed for.
I'd be interested to see statistics on how many of each group personally believed, and what denominations were praying for them. If it was muslims or catholics, then personally, that explains it. Sorry, but I'm a protestant.
Also I would like to point out that the Bible makes it pretty clear that to benefit from such prayers, you have to have faith yourself, which is where the faith of the participants comes in.
Once again, science has made a complete fool of itself trying to test God. Remember, "Thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."

 

And I would just like to point out that that's . Prayers are based on the faith of the pray-er, not the pray-ee, as per the Bible. I have been assured of this by actual priests, and I take their word on the Bible as slightly better than yours.

 

What's he going to do next, sue God for answering their prayers?

 

I'm inclined to agree with Drew but maybe that is because we are both arrogant and obnoxious. I am responsible for my actions.

I do believe in the power of the mind and I don't discount prayers but have no idea of why or if they work.

Personal comment ahead

My background is primarily Espicopalian (Anglo-Catholic) which I guess makes me a hybrid. I must say that I find the above statement offensive and one of the reasons no Prostestant has a chance in Hel's Dominion of presuading me they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

 

Nakia, thank you for beating me to the punch regarding NOG's assessment of the value of non-Protestant prayer. Offensive doesn't begin to describe it.