1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Justice in the world

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Iku-Turso, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. Iku-Turso Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,393
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    28
    Here's something I've been thinking lately:

    1) The world is an unjust place, which explains pretty every pooey thing happening since the beginning of time, especially to good people

    2) The world is a just place, which means that everyone who find themselves knee-deep in poo getting exactly what they deserve

    3) The world is just a place, ethics and justice being primarily human meaning imposed to chaotic patterns

    Any other options coming to mind?
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    The world is.
     
  3. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Messages:
    6,103
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    241
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think the world is either just or unjust. At times it's neither, at times it's both.

    Extra points for using the word "pooey." :)
     
  4. a soubriquet Gems: 5/31
    Latest gem: Andar


    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think justice and what is considered justice is too variable to consider the world to be a just place.
     
  5. Loreseeker

    Loreseeker A believer in knowledge Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,603
    Media:
    69
    Likes Received:
    30
    Gender:
    Female
    Justice has nothing to do with the world. It is a principle, which gets followed or not in various events. It is not an innate trait of the world itself, but neither is it just a formulation of human minds (I guess this is open to debate, but oh, well :p ). The world as an entity is not subject to justice - countless events in it, are.

    Also, assuming:
    1: A more or less uniformed interpretation of the meaning of Justice
    2: The inability of a single mind/person to experience/process every single event involving Justice (or lack of) in a given space-time interval (the broader the better, but let's say Planet Earth - Homo sapiens, till now )

    Result: The world will either seem just or not, based on the limited experiences of the mind making the decision. No one, even the ones who get it right (because someone might be right in the assessment), will have sufficient evidence to back their claim. Futile mind work. Endless debate :p
     
  6. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    The world is a physical place which follows natural law. If you jump off a cliff you fall down, that is a physical law which has nothing to do with justice or morality.

    Justice or legal laws are man made. Laws are the grease that make the wheels of society turn smoothly. They may vary from society to society and from age to age but are intended to make it possible for human beings to live together.

    In the broader sense of justice that is not governed by specific laws I think we would need to go case by case.

    IE: If you build your house where mud slides are common and it is buried by a mud slide is this just? No but neither is it unjust. It is simply a fact of nature. Nature does not make judgements but simply is. however if the mud slides are caused by some act of human beings which change the natural landscape we could argue then that the destruction by the land slide is unjust.

    Justice is a concept by human beings for human beings.
     
  7. Scot

    Scot The Small One Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,093
    Likes Received:
    4
    "I said, 'There is no justice!' as they lead me out the door. The judge said, 'This isn't a court of justice son, this is a court of law.'"

    - Billy Bragg, Rotting on Remand

    Just seemed an appropriate quote for the topic. I agree with the gist that the world just is, it is not just. The overwhelming presence of what is commonly perceived as injustice, such as starving children and tsunamis killing hundreds of thousands is a dilemma that most religions wrestle heartily with. How the religions answer the question, "If there is an omnipotent and loving God/supreme being/your preferrred term, why does He/She/It allow suffering in the world?" can be very interesting.

    Another quote I remember, though I can't recall who from, was "Either God is omnipotent and doesn't care about suffering, or He cares about suffering, but is powerless to prevent it."

    One very good argument for why a powerful but caring God would allow suffering and injustice in creation was presented by Orson Scott Card in "The Worthing Saga", about powerful telepaths who monitor all the human settled worlds of an empire and prevent anything bad from ever happening. Then they discover one of the founders, said Worthing, who is agast at what they have done.

    In a game analogy, sure, it might be fun for a little while to play a level 40 character at the beginning of Baldur's Gate I, but after two minutes, where is the challenge?

    Of course, we can always put the blame for suffering firmly on Adam and Eve and Satan, for bringing Original Sin into the world.

    Take your pick, but regardless of what you choose, the world remains as it is.
     
  8. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    30
    Nature is not bound by Human notions of Justice. Weather, animals or even the laws of physics all function under their own laws, and not any from Man. Man can study and observe them, but he does not write them.

    What Man also can do is look to minimize the negative impact of these "pooey" circumstances, by preparation and co-operation. They can shore up where they live, they can get out of the way of severe situations and they can work together to clean up and get back on their feet. But we can't ensure that only bad people die in a tragedy.

    Man is also the greatest source of injustice in the world. By the actions of some, untold suffering can and does occur. There is little that can change that without causing further pain and suffering.

    The world however is a place of consequence. The actions we take today may caus further headache for future generations. I wouldn't call it justice though...
     
  9. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    Personally, I go for number 2, but only from the perspective of God (kinda the only one that matters, really), which also addresses Loreseeker's issue.
     
  10. Salamander3 Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    Joined:
    May 10, 2008
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    1
    Whether something is 'just' or not is entirely a concept. To a man on death row, his life is being tragically cut short before he has a chance to reform and change his ways permanently. He sees his death as unjust. To the family of the people the man has murdered, however, an eye for an eye seems a very just punishment.

    There is no justness in the world, only fairness. chaos is uncontrollable, and while the concept of justness is a very individual thing, talking about the world being just is almost oxymoronic. A myriad of people living independent lives, none truly influencing the other as noone knows everyone; that is truly the nature of chaos, and chaos is ultimately fair.

    I get the feeling I'm rambling again. Stop me, 8!
     
    martaug likes this.
  11. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    Salamander3, the only problem with that rambling is that chaos is relative. :p
     
  12. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    Earth, the planet, is not chaotic neither is the Universe. Only mankind is chaotic. I guess justice like beauty is in th eye of the beholder.
     
  13. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    The chaos of man is also relative, though. We just haven't found a perspective yet that removes all the chaos. Probably because we aren't God and all...

    On a side note, there are some interesting debates about chaos on the quantum level.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.