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Jaheira: not fit for evil party

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Capt Massacre, Jun 7, 2008.

  1. Capt Massacre Gems: 5/31
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    I remember reading in a walkthrough that Jaheira, being neutral, could be part of an evil party. But Jaheira doesn't allow you to do several rather obvious evil things. In effect, she acts like a good NPC.


    Without consequences:

    - Wants to scourge the "evil" Unseeing Eye cult.
    - Objects when you refuse to save the poisoned Harper (compare with Anomen, who objects when you do help him).
    - Despises Lehtinan and the CC "entertainment".
    - Appreciates righteous causes (Valygar’s, etc.)

    With consequences:

    - Nalia: you take her money and refuse her quest, Jaheira accepts for you
    - Druid Grove. When you poison the source, she attacks you
    - When you try to sell Valygar to Tolgerias, she talks in your stead and prevents the feat (like Minsc).
    - You attack drow Drizzt, she leaves the party (precisely when you're getting nice scimitars for her!)
    - Underdark, you attack Goldander Blackenrock for the stone instead of killing the Baalor, she attacks you (THIS surprised me, bye bye Jaheira, my game is ruined!)
    - I'm not sure about it, but I wonder if she agrees that you attack Adalon.

    So this is a warning for those contemplating using Jaheira in an evil party.
     
  2. spetznaz Gems: 13/31
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    Well, even though she's a Druid, hence Neutral, she still has a mind of her own, experiences from the past - a personal view of what's right and wrong. She may not always be able to follow her intuition since she's neutral and therefor doesn't like extremes, whether it be good or evil.

    The fact that she doesn't like Lethinan and his.. establishment is quite understandable. The special services provided are for one thing not particularly nice if you're a woman. Second, I'd view trafficking as extreme and against the laws of nature.

    The choices where she intervenes are a bit odd though, except for the Druid Grove. Obviously she wants to free that land from the original scourge, not damage it further (she's a Druid).

    She's also connected to the Harpers, hence having a special bond to it, which may interfere with her beeing Neutral.

    I simply see, and think of, Jaheira as a True Neutral Druid, slightly leaning towards good. However, if you play evil, you don't play Neutral and since True Neutrals view both extreme evil and good as dangerous, she's not really fit to be in an evil party. She's slightly good so she fits in with a Neutral/Good party.

    The laws of Amn/the world are not chaotic good or evil, not even neutral. If put in an alignment, they're Lawful Neutral. Hence breaking the law is wrong, even for a Neutral character. It's not extreme, it's just the right thing to do to keep the world in order - which is a druids main motto.
     
  3. Decados

    Decados The Chosen One

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    1) With regards to Nalia, perhaps Jaheria believes in keeping her word?

    2) I'm afraid this one is a bit 'duh!' She's a druid, why would she ever regard poisoning the grove as acceptable?

    3) What, she speaks up to prevent the sale of an innocent ranger? A fellow warrior of nature?

    4) My, she doesn't condone attacking another innocent ranger?

    5) So she should be fine with killing an innocent when an unnatural creature is still around? Said unnatural creature being one of those it is her duty to slay?

    6) There is nothing unacceptable about her refusing to attack Adalon. Adalon, unpleasant as she is, maintains the balance by preventing the Drow from moving up to the surface in force.

    You do not have to take the obvious evil choice in every situation, even if you are an evil party. There are many justifications for not doing so. Keeping party members satisfied is just one of them. Jaheria can work in an evil party if need be.
     
  4. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    In the original D&D it was common to have a character who was one alignment with tendancies toward an alignment next to it in the alignment grid. Thus a paladin would always be lawful good, but may be more concerned with obeying the law even if it meant the greater good was not helped by the law. Or the paladin may choose the violate laws that did not help the greater good (a paladin always opposes evil and unjust laws). A paladin could even have tendancies toward balance -- which, for a paladin, would mean tolerance for true neutral (perhaps even chaotic good and, for the really open-minded paladin, chaotic neutral).

    Jaheira is true neutral with lawful good tendancies.
     
  5. Capt Massacre Gems: 5/31
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    It's a lot of cases, and I'm sure there are others. Of course, you can understand, her being a druid, killing nature in the druid grove won't please her (Cernd reacts so too), still it's the evil option evaporating. For some cases, we can understand why, still she's an obstacle.
    As for Adalon, it becomes far stretched. The delight of the evil party is to use a human flesh armour. And an evil party that doesn't attack Drizzt? Why play evil anyway in this case?
    The point is not saying Jaheira is wrong, it is: if you want to be really evil, better forget Jaheira.
     
  6. Decados

    Decados The Chosen One

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    I think it is more accurate to say if you want to be Bioware evil, then she isn't as suitable. There are more ways to play evil than simply choosing whichever option Bioware intended to be the evil one. Yes, wearing human flesh is pretty vile. However, it is also noticable- everyone you meet will be aware of your intentions and, if BGII were more detailed, this would obstruct your progress.

    Caradhras' thread detailing how he went about playing evil is a good representation of an alternate evil character.
     
  7. Killjoy Gems: 8/31
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    What happened was that BioWare screwed up on Jaheira's role-playing versus her alignment, same way they did with "chaotic evil" Korgan (who is more true neutral than Jaheira is, frankly).

    Jaheira is chaotic good, a vigilante who wants to strike out at evil wherever it may lurk. The only reason it says "true neutral" on her character sheet is because she's a druid.
     
  8. Deathmage

    Deathmage Arrr! Veteran

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    I don't see how Korgan can be anything but CE, considering how he has a banter with the PC about how he killed three or four of his previous companions for basically no reason whatsoever. Yeah, he says things like "Arrr, even I would nay ship children or women!" but then he picks on Aerie until she cries, and pretty much supports every single evil act in the game.

    Jaheira definitely leans more towards NG. The G3 Tweakpack makes this change, IIRC. A better example of TN in the game would probably be Cernd, and a better character to take on an evil party would probably be Haer'Dalis with his Doomguard philosophy.
     
  9. Aces Gems: 19/31
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    No wonder she romanced my Paladin so well.
    ;)
     
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