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It's OK to knife a burglar in the UK

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Link

    We were discussing the extent of home defense issue elsewhere, but this probably deserves its own thread. In the US, I would imagine that people would be shocked that this is something that you even need to make into a law (well, maybe not, given some of the legal nonsense that we've seen recently).

    It's interesting to me, but I like the quote where he says, basically, it's OK to stab the burglar with a poker but not shoot him in the back as he's running away. Pretty much spot on -- while the person presents a danger to you and yours, you can do what you want to him, but once he's not a danger, you can't.
     
  2. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    Anyone breaking into Barmy Mansion is getting raped. End of.

    Seriously though, this is welcome. I think if someone has broken into your house it should be more or less anything goes re defence of self, loved ones and property. If you start chasing him and he's running away, how can you be sure he's not running to grab the crowbar he left outside when jimmying open the window with a view to bludgeoning you to death?

    Your emotions will be running wild in that situation and the only person to blame for that is the idiot(s) in your house against your wishes. If they end up dying or being seriously injured, I won't be crying any tears.
     
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  3. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    As an American, I'm surprised this wasn't already clearly on the books. While I wouldn't go so far as Barmy - I wouldn't arse rape them - if someone breaks into my home, it's definitely game on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2011
  4. Gaear

    Gaear ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful

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    Exactly. Things are never so clear as we'd like them to be.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I definitely feel that anyone breaking into your home is fair game as far as killing them goes. I find it absurd that this is even up for discussion and consideration, let alone illegal.
     
  6. Cap'n CJ

    Cap'n CJ Arrr! Veteran

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    If you ever step on my patch, i'll bring you down.
     
  7. 8people

    8people 8 is just another way of looking at infinite ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG] I don't always think killing is necessarily appropriate.

    Not when you can give them something that will take years to recover from at least :p

    And Barmy - I feel sorry for anyone who throws you a surprise party at your home :p
     
  8. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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    How do you know they won't enjoy it? :angel:
     
  9. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I'm a little surprised at how blood thirsty everyone in this thread is. To me this is a very similar situation to the other thread where the pharmacist kept on pumping bullets into the burglar after he was already down and in that thread most people think he went too far.
     
  10. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Well, if I knocked the would-be burglar unconscious with the first swing of my Louisville Slugger, I wouldn't continue beating his head in an attempt to give him multiple skull fractures. IIRC, most people didn't have a problem with the first shot - it was when the pharmacist came back a couple of minutes later and started pumping bullets into his back that he went too far.
     
  11. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If they are breaking into my house iwth any type of visible weapon, they are eating steel. End of story. I will take ZERO chance with the lives of my loved ones. It only takes a moments hesitation before disaster can strike. If no weapon is visible, they have ONE chance to get out. If they don't, first one is in the kneecap. The 2nd is the other kneecap.
     
  12. rg58 Gems: 5/31
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    At which point Blades of Vanatar, at least in the US, they will win a civil suit for everything you own. If you can shot them in the knees than you weren't in fear for your life & didn't need to use lethal force(at least that is what his attorney will tell the jury).
     
  13. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    To which I respond.... I will have peace of mind knowing my familiy is now safe. Nothing in this world is more improtant than that. I can always regain possesions, but I can't regain their lives.

    If I have a gun pointed at him and he still advances, he is getting shot everytime. If he turns to flee, I will watch him until he is gone, then call the cops.
     
  14. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    No it is not legal to simply knife someone who enters your home.

    The law surrounding the issue is clarified by the intruder, if you have an unarmed intruder in your home, who attempts to flee and you catch and stab him, you will be charged to the full extent of the law, if you have an intruder in your home who attempts to avoid you and your family technically you are supposed to inform the police and not to attempt to apprehend the intruder yourself, however should you attempt this, reasonable force will be judged based on your actions. If you have an intruder in your home who makes their way towards where your family is sleeping, they are open game.

    its an unwritten home defence rule to remember, if someone breaks into your home, beat the crap out of them, and then drag them upstairs.
     
  15. Déise

    Déise Both happy and miserable, without the happy part!

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    It's simply a case of moving the law from common law to the statute books, it's not changing the situation at all. So it's just a PR exercise really.

    As Shoshino said the thrust of the law is that you should avoid the intruder if possible. While I'm not fully in agreement with that morally I do think it's the most practical course of action. Unsavoury characters tend to have much more experience in fights than law abiding citizens and I'd put my money on them if something starts. I remember seeing a guy on the English news who had his eyes superglued together after he tried to attack a pair of burglars by himself.
     
  16. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    Bingo, this is why the law is set out like it is, the police dont want people to take on criminals, while the media may glorify 'have-a-go-heroes' it is nothing but a headache for the police, who now either have to deal with accusations of GBH, ABH or even attempted/aggrevated manslaughter against what should be an innocent home owner, if the criminal kills the home owner, the police take it in the neck for not properly protecting the innocent... its all legal red tape and media bull$hit
     
  17. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    "He added: "We will make it quite clear you can hit the burglar with the poker if he's in the house and you have a perfect defence when you do so."

    Mr Clarke said legal protection would not extend to anyone shooting a burglar in the back when they were fleeing or "getting their friends together to beat them up"."


    So you have absolute defense, only it's not absolute :) . It does sound more like a clarification than any change in the law. Actually, it sounds even more like a PR stunt.

    In general, laws should be on the side of the homeowner acting in defense of him/herself and their property/family is how it should be. I do agree that there should be some limitation, though. For example, if a would-be burglar shows no sign of resistance and is running for his life, or if they are already subdued and can't do anything, killing them is excessive. Likewise, opening fire without warning at someone just for taking a shortcut through your lawn is not ok imo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Two points here - unless you have had specialized training, it's really hard to shoot someone in the knee cap when your stress levels are that high, the target is moving and it's likely dark. Even if you practice a lot, you aren't practicing under those conditions. The reason most training tells you to aim for the torso is because it's a bigger target. If you're off by a couple of inches and you're aiming for the knee, there's a good chance you'll miss completely. If you're off a few inches aiming for the torso, you'll still likely hit the intruder somewhere.

    Secondly, to build on what rg58 said, every single police officer I have ever spoken to (and I know quite a few) have said if you intend to use a firearm for home defense, you shoot to kill. (Which, conveniently, is a distinct possibility with a shot in the torso.) Just make sure you don't shoot them in the back. Dead guys don't get to tell their side of the story. Even if the guy turns out to be unarmed, he shouldn't be in your damn house. If you kill an intruder, you say, "Officer, I yelled at him to stop, at which point I saw him reach into his pocket. I assumed he was pulling out a weapon, so I opened fire. If I waited to see if he actually was armed, the bullets would have been flying at me."
     
  19. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I'm bloodthirsty when it comes to criminals, no question there, Snook. If someone is in a house illegally, they have already violated the law, and the likelihood is high that they are not there to leave a present for the homeowner. At that moment, they should lose any and all rights they have. They deserve instant death. I make no apologies for feeling that people should be able to protect their persons, family, and property.
     
  20. Tarrasque

    Tarrasque Whoever said Paladins had to be charismatic? ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    As far as I'm concerned it's quite simple.

    If someone breaks into my house, threatens me or threatens someone else in front of me, I will use whatever level of force is necessary to ensure they stop and are caught.

    If they choose to escalate the situation to the point where, for mine or someone else's protection I have to use lethal force then so be it. It was their choice to escalate and I will sleep soundly at night if it comes to it.

    And as for just ignoring them and hope they go away, it's also simple. I have no guarantee if I let them go (especially given the state of the police and forensics in this country nowadays) that they will be caught before they have re-offended and possibly killed or injured someone else. I'm not prepared to have that on my conscience.
     
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