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Immigration Law

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by NOG (No Other Gods), Apr 26, 2010.

  1. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    Arizona has enacted a tough new immigration law, stirring political pots all over. The law was apparently in response to an overall failure of the federal system to manage things, and includes a provision to allow people to sue government institutions for impeding the enforcement of immigration laws (suggesting that's been an issue). Critics immediately blasted it saying it's a recipe for racial profiling. Obama has said it threatens "to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans..." Advocates say it just makes being illegal... illegal, and that it's a response to federal inaction. I've also heard criticism saying that it violates the Constitution's provision for a federal immigration standard. I disagree with that, because it isn't enacting any kind of standard, just enacting punishment for breaking that standard, but that's up to courts to decide.

    Personally, I'm wondering what 'basic notion of fairness' this law threatens to undermine. I can understand the fears of racial profiling, though I think there are ways to handle it, but I don't see any 'basic notion of fairness' that's being attacked here.

    As a result of this all, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has apparently placed immigration reform on the front burner at Obama's request.

    Comments? Criticisms? Support?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Sheriff Arpaio will very predictably pounce upon that law to generate some more publicity. He will then be sued, and (rightly and predictably) lose in court. Considering the fact that from what I understand the immigration legislation is a federal affair, the state law is probably bound to be judged unconstitutional.

    I am with Judge Neapolitano here in believing that that (harebrained and populist) law will probably only cost the taxpayer a lot of money in the process of being ruled null and void.
     
  3. CelticDream

    CelticDream I play well with others... others, not you Veteran

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    I know that what I have to say will probably not be looked on favorably with others, but I ask that you try not to judge too harshly.

    I am highly supportive of Arizona's immigration law. For too long has this country sat back on its heels and virtually allowed people from the south to swarm up into this country and in some ways, almost take over. I'm sick and tired of having to "press 1 for English" because many of these people expect us to learn their language so they can live more comfortably here. It's all fine and dandy that they want to work here so they can send money back to their family in Mexico, but if you truly want to live here, learn my language and don't expect me to cater to you. You came into my country, not the other way around. When I lived in Germany, while many people knew English and were excited to practice their knowledge on myself and my family, we realized that we were not in our home country and to show respect, to be able to communicate better with others and ease our transition into this new society, we learned how to speak German. To me that is a common courtesy - we shouldn't expect them to cater to us and speak our language because that's not their job. They shouldn't have to change themselves just to make it more comfortable on us. By doing so, we had so many people who almost literally bent over backwards to help us learn the language as well as the local slang (which finally got me in trouble my sophomore year in high school when my teacher got sick of me speaking Schwabisch instead of "High German" until I pointed out he was teaching everyone else Platt Deutsch - another regional style of German :lol:). They were more open to giving us suggestions of little out of the way places to visit or eat because they could tell we were truly there to make friends and experience what we could before my dad's time working for Bosch overseas was up.

    I also remember, at one point, where those of Hispanic/Latino origin were trying to change this country's national anthem so they could have a version they could sing in Spanish. HELL NO! On top of that, some of the more dangerous drug cartels are making their way into this country from Mexico because we have very lax immigration laws due to the fact that this country doesn't enforce them. It has also been proven that we spend more money on supporting illegals from south of the border than we do even on the war in the Middle East. Once I find those sources, I'll post them, but why should the money from my checks pay for their housing, medical care, food, etc., when they're here illegally? To be quite honest, I'd rather have my money pay for the lazies over in the UK who want to have 14 kids and are so far working on #8.

    All in all, I have no problem with the fact that we're a melting pot of different nationalities - that's how we started and that's how we came to be what we are now. I just really am disgusted that immigrants from virtually every other country bust their butts to do what they can to learn English so they can survive here easier, but those from the southern border expect us to cater to their whims. Se habla espanol? No! I downright refuse to learn Spanish and unless I foresee myself taking a trip to Spain sometime in the future, I don't ever plan on ever taking classes for it.

    Again, I know many people won't agree with what I have to say, but this is why I am very much for the Arizona law and I highly wish that the country itself would make it federal. Sometimes I think the government is too scared of pissing people off instead of doing what's right.
     
  4. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I totally agree with you CD. In fact, those are my feelings on British immigration! At the end of the day, if you went to Iran or something you'd be expected to dress in a certain manner. If you were in Spain, you'd have to be ok with the shops closing during the afternoon. So why the Hell should you change when they won't?
     
  5. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    I'm in 100% agreement, to, CD. I'll go even farther and say I don't terribly like them coming here just to send money home. I understand it, and I suppose we should allow a certain amount of it, but there was a time when immigration meant taking your family with you and actually dedicating yourself to Nation X. We got a lot of very good immigrants like that. People who helped shape our nation.

    That all said, though, I do think the concerns over racial profiling are justifiable. This is a state where illegal immigration has led to racist feeling has lead to crack-downs on illegal immigration has lead to all kinds of mess. This has the potential to just add more fuel to that fire.

    As concerns Ragusa's concern on unconstitutionality, again, I'm no lawyer, so I'll leave the final judgement to them (actually, probably the SCOTUS), but it seems to me that it doesn't violate anything. The Constitution gives the Federal Government the power to establish standards of citizenship, immigration, and naturalization. So long as this law uses those standards and doesn't try to over-rule them, I don't see a problem.
     
  6. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

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    I also agree. Illegal aliens are illegal. They are not "undocumented", they are here illegally and the federal governments lack of action clearly is forcing the hand of the states. A nation and its citizens should get to decide who can immigrate. The last thing we need is additional uneducated people living here who have no interest in assimilating into our culture.

    This is an e-mail making the rounds (so ignore the all caps as I didn't type it)

     
  7. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Off the top of my head:

    The first problem is whether Arizona is constitutionally authorised to legislate over matters of citizenship or enforcement laws and whether they have arrogated federal legislative authority. That is a constitutional problem.

    The other presumable problem is who is tasked with enforcing existing federal immigration laws. Iirc the responsible authority in the US is the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), now part of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). As for federal inaction forcing the states hands ... I don't expect that one to be persuasive in court.

    Enforcement responsibility is important, example: The tax office is neither responsible nor authorised to enforce traffic regulations; consequently any act by the tax office attempting to do so would be illegal and null and void.

    Likewise, it is arguably so that Arizona state whatnot is not authorised to enforce federal immigration laws (which could explain some of the problems people have with Sheriff Arpaio and his freehanded activities). Such allocations of enforcement responsibility are usually explicit and restrictive. Arrogation of enforcement authority is also a constitutional problem.

    In my superficial analysis, the power to prescribe rules as to which aliens may enter the US and which aliens may be removed solely resides with the federal government. Article I of the US Constitution says in ...
    That are two relatively basic constitutional issues in a federal form of government, and my confident hunch is that Arizona is on the losing side of both. Considering the basic nature of the two constitutional questions I feel temped to assume that they were raised fully intentional and in bad faith and are not more than a populist gesture by the Arizona GOP - i.e. pure political gamesmanship for partisan benefit, at taxpayer's expense. Annoying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  8. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I think the arguement, as Ragusa began to explain, is that Arizona as a state does not have the authority to enact any law concerning immigration or citizenship. I agree in what you are saying in principle - that it's illegal to be here illegally. But it always was. I do not think the law will accomplish what it seeks to accomplish. Arizona lacks the authority and manpower to enforce it, and if they do start checking the IDs and paperwork of lots of people that look Hispanic, that would be racial profiling. I agree that you shouldn't be here if you are here illegally, but I don't see how the law can be enforced effectively.

    You either mean Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, or Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. (I know you know that, but you may want to correct your typo.)

    Careful on that one. It was very common not that long ago for one member of a family to immigrate to the US, and send money back home to his family. Lots of times, a would-be immigrant family didn't have enough money to bring the whole family over at once. Usually the father of the family would go first, and once enough money was saved, he would bring over his working age sons, and finally the rest of the family.

    That's how my family got their start in this country. The first arrived (my great-grandfather) in 1918, but it took him five years of saving money (and sending a good chunk back home) before he had enough to bring the rest of his family here, and my grandfather did not immigrate to the US until 1923.

    Immigration laws have been around for a long time. Heck, they were even in effect when my family came here. Basically, most immigration laws focus on limiting the number of people from Country X that can immigrate in a given year. Usually, the number is based on a percentage of people from County X who already live here. (Actually, I think the number is 2% - so we will accept X number of immigrants from Mexico each year, where X is equal to 2% of the number of people of Mexican origin who are already living in the US legally.) The problem is there's a lot more than that who are interested in coming to the US.

    I think that is another problem. How do you actually do anything about the problem without racial profiling? Keep in mind while the illegal immigrant problem in Arizona is significant, there are a heck of a lot more people of Latino origin who are there legally than illegally.
     
  9. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    IMO this is just another wave of American nativism. The melting pot was not particularly welcoming to the first Irish (or their Catholicism), or Germans or Chinese when they arrived. Well, the sky didn't fall.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I have never really understood why all profiling is wrong. Seriously, when a "minority" is standing on a street corner in poor area of town, wearing three pounds of gold and his posse behind him ... perhaps, just perhaps, he fits a specific profile. A carload of "minorities" are packed like sardines crossing the border ... perhaps they fit a profile. Fifteen people living in a two bedroom apartment with very little furniture except cots ... perhaps they fit a profile.

    A person looks hispanic and can't speak english ... perhaps they fit a profile. Why are the police NOT allowed to ask for proof of residency? Seems to be basic detective work to me.

    Ragusa, we accept thousand upon thousands of legal immigrants from everywhere every year. We also accept people on working visas and help them become citizens. The illegal immigrants reduce the numbers of legal immigrant we can accept.
     
  11. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Ragusa - It goes much deeper:

    http://www.pbs.org/nbr/site/onair/transcripts/070219_gharib/index.html

    But it is really more complicated than that. There are two things happening in AZ:

    1. The drug wars along particular areas of the border that is threatening citizens and their safety.

    2. The regular flow of illegal immigration, which is actually down because jobs are harder to find in the recession. But there are still thousands coming across the border every month.

    The state has the perfect right to protect its citizens and their property against those coming across the border. If the federal government will not take measures to protect its borders, the local government must. That is basic.

    Does this law fix that? Hardly. It is probably more political than it is practical. Not only does it appear racist, but it is racist in its application, unless police begin to ask white residents for their "papers" and passports as well. AZ may be forced to craft an official document that anyone will have to produce if they encounter the authorities to prove that they are legal citizens. But more than likely the law will not stand up in court because of Constitutional reasons that have already been pointed out.

    Public documents? I notice you failed to mention coporate literature in your list. Do you know how badly coporate America wants the hispanic market? They have wet dreams over that share of the market....



    Not to worry: There is a large American coporation coming to a local town in your country that will soon fix that problem -- open till midnight and 7 days a week. And religious holidays? Great excuse for a sale! ;)
     
  12. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perhaps you should read the law before deciding it's unconstitutional. In the first part of the law, illegal immigrants are turned over to ICE for enforcement; Arizona doesn't do any enforcement themselves as far as illegal immigrant status. They did add legislation to say that you are trespassing in Arizona if you are illegal, so you can be charged with a misdemeanor. They also made it illegal for government agencies to look the other way with respect to illegal immigrants and made it possible for citizens to sue their government if they believe it is not doing as the law requires (e.g. no more "sanctuary" cities in Arizona).

    That's nonsense. Nobody is avocating changing the legal immigrant rate or mixture; the Arizonans want to stop the illegal immigration, or at least make it more punitive so that they go elsewhere.
     
  13. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    T2,
    I am not blaming the US for anything here. Immigration policy is a matter for the US to decide and I have no relevant opinion on that. I am of the view that one cannot have an open door policy as nation; enforcement of immigration legislation under the constitutional process is a sensible thing. In that sense I can comprehend the sentiment of wanting to do something about illegal immigration behind the Arizona bill. It's practical (i.e. probably unconstitutional) implementation (on a state level) and the (cynical) political calculus behind that bill are a different matter entirely.

    As the bill is likely going to be nullified anyway, the only practical purpose it serves is political rabble rousing. It is a waste of time legally and from a law enforcement point of view. Everyone arrested under that bill will have to be released. And then there are the predictable lawsuits ... let's better not think about the compensation and legal costs Arizona will have to pay when the state loses all those cases ... Got excess taxpayer money to spare? Why not make a tax cut instead? Much less controversial, and would even be constitutional as well.
    You really think that there is not a xenophobic element inherent in that bill? I am not persuaded. I see that in about all of the parties advocating anti-immigration or anti-illegal-alien measures (then foreigners are going to overrun us!) in Germany, under the benign fig leaf of wanting to 'uphold the law'. Why should it be any different in the US?
     
  14. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    I thought ICE was a federal agency? If they are, the state cannot "order" them to accept illegal immigrants that they arrest under a state law, at least not that I am aware of.
     
  15. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perhaps you see what you want to see. What is the point of immigration laws if you're not going to enforce them? There are many reasons for immigration laws; if you choose believe that it's driven mainly by the xenophopic, what do I care? I see it as the illegals causing enough perceived problems that the people want something done about it. Will this solve the perceved problems? I guess we'll have to see if in fact the law remains in place.

    It is a federal agency whose duty it is to enforce immigration laws. They could in fact let them all go I suppose, but what kind of ****-storm would that cause? It's one thing to turn a blind eye; it is quite another to refuse to do your duty.
     
  16. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Arizona is being overrun by Illegals, with mounting amounts of murders and illegal sapping their resources. Hence the whole point of this bill coming to life. It is a bit callous and far reaching, but they have reason. It's their solution that is wrong. There is no crazy, xenophobic group behind it. It's people who want to live in relative peace and safety that are behind it.
     
  17. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    I am all about enforcing the law, immigration laws included. In a sensible (i.e. legal) way, that is going to hold up in court.

    My point is that the Arizona bill is an ill conceived solution to the problem if and as it is likely going down the drain at great expense. Then it is doing just harm and no good. If they just made a bonfire and burned the money, it would at least keep the bystanders warm.

    On a related note, it is probably time for the US to introduce a proper, forgery proof national ID card for all citizens :eek: Oh nooooh, not the Mark of the Beast! :eek: If I recall rightly, that, and the immigration reform, was one of the things that Bush didn't manage to push through, because of massive GOP opposition.
     
  18. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    About the fate of Bush's attempt at immigration reform, excerpts:
    ... who are nowadays seen with the Tea Party crowd. Makes me think, if a Democrat tries immigration reform he better dons on his helmet and flak jacket ... it'll get ugly. These people weren't in the mood for compromise when Bush ruled, and they will be far less cooperative under Obama.
     
  20. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    What type of proof could he provide? A driver's license? Any college student can tell you how easy it is to get a fake one. A SS card? A lot of people have forged SS cards, because there's no picture or chip or any other means of proving it's real or not. If the police are already suspicous, they are going to assume any "proof" that person produces is a forgery anyway, even if they are here legally. Heck, a lot of people speak Spanish who were born here, because that's what their family speaks. (Although those are usually bi-lingual.)

    The illegal immigrant problem has been going on for decades. There are illegals in this country that had their kids born here who are now adults and have children of their own here - all of which (besides the grandparents) are natural born US citizens.
     
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