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HotU & Character Development

Discussion in 'Neverwinter Nights (Classic)' started by Munchkin Blender, Oct 29, 2008.

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    I finally finished the OC and now I'm adventuring through HotU. I do have to the say the story developed quicker and more interactive than the OC. The henchmen interaction between Deekin and who I pick up along the way is 100 times better than anything the OC had, which greatly improves game play. I do find my character to be slightly overpowered at level 18 to start the HotU; infact when I play with a level 15 character he/she is overpowereed. Maybe that is why a character directly imported from SoU between level 11-13 would be more suited to play HotU.

    So far I freed or defeated, depending on how you look at it, the Fairy Queen and I have picked up the gloves of balance, the best weapon for a monk multi class character and I will not spend a single gold piece on any item until I reach chapter 2.

    I know my next 2 levels will be Monk to provide my character magic resistance without equipment. After reaching character level 20 my character will be Monk - 12, Rogue - 4, and Fighter - 4. I believe I will continue with my Monk levels until level 24 when I select the next fighter level to obtain Epic Weapon Specialization for the added damage bonus. I am however considering taking one level of Rogue around level 22 and 23 to increase open lock, disable trap, UMI, and search. Should I hold off on the rogue levels until my character has 16 levels of Monk?
     
  2. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    HotU always starts a character at level 15.

    I think you're feeling overpowered because the monk itself is overpowered. The resistances and saves for a monk are incredible and really help in the early stages of the game. A monk has an easier time early on, but will have a more difficult time by the end of the game (unless you are a kama wielding monk).

    The Gloves of the Balanced Hands is great for a kama wielding monk. If you are wielding kamas then take more fighter levels. You don't need 16 levels of monk -- you already have diamond soul you don't need any more monk levels. The thieving levels will add to sneak attack damage if you can stun your opponents.

    If you are using your fists, IMO the damage bonus at level 16 is better than the additional thieving skills and the potential improvement of sneak attack damage (besides you'll be able to have a thief with you in later chapters).

    Don't overlook epic prowess.
     
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    At level 21 I was going to take Epice Weapon Focus and take Epic Weapon Specialization at level 24. If I read everything correctly I should be able to finish the game around level 28 and if that is the case Epic Prowess would be the next feat chosen.

    Why would a non-dual wielding Monk have a more difficult time later on in the game?
     
  4. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    T2: I think he's referring to the Fists of Balance (+1d6 Fire & +1d6 Cold), which are really the best gloves you'll be able to get for quite a while. In fact, I didn't start using another pair of gloves until in chapter 3, where I bought the gloves of Hin Fist +10 (+2d6 Sonic).

    MB: You'll see for yourself once you hit chapter 2, but to give you the run down, you'll be able to upgrade your weapons up to +10 and be able to add some other spiffy enchantments. This basically means that your fists, which hit as +3, will be having difficulty with some of the damage resistance of your enemies, whereas any weapon that you can equip can be upgraded to hit as a +10, bypassing most if not all of the damage resistance.

    Regarding the feats, I think you can only take Weapon Specialisation when leveling as a Fighter. So you could make 24 a Fighter level, take 25 as a Monk for the extra fist damage and then take another Fighter level for Epic Prowess. You'll then have room for another 2 Rogue levels if you're so inclined and you'll gain an extra feat.
     
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    The Fist of Balance is considered a +5 weapon and in one of my prior runs through the game I found a +6 or +7 Gloves of the Hin Fist towards the end of the chapter 1. Yeah I know about making an item; to me that is like a lot of the cheese you find in BG: SoA and ToB mods. I like finding my equipment.
     
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Got the two confused.

    Dual wielding kamas allows for the monk to upgrade the weapons to give him or her +10 to hit and damage, 2d6 acid damage, keen, haste, and a number of other abilities that make later battles easier. A lot of those abilities are already in other equipment -- this frees up those slots for different equipment and other immunities (+10 Bracers of Armor for example).

    The damage from the fists is better than a kama but more enemies have immunity to sonic damage (Hin Fist) than acid damage (Rizovir[?] upgrade). A dual wielding monk gets 10 attacks per round, while a unarmed monk can attack 8 time per round at a primary target.

    I think for the majority of battles it will be a wash.
     
  7. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Actually, it gives a +5 bonus to your attack bonus. It does not make your fists hit as a +5 weapon. This goes for all gloves. Only the Ki Strike feat you got when you reached lvl 10 matters in this respect. Your fists will hit as a +1 weapon from lvl 10, +2 from lvl 13, and +3 from lvl 16. So don't be expecting to be bypassing a lot of DR.

    You can upgrade it further, with Improved Ki Strike +4 & +5, but you'll need 21 WIS for that. So that limits the usefulness of those feats to Monk/Cleric and Monk/Druid builds, mostly. And then there's no more improvement to be had.

    Rizolvir
     
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    I decided to create a new character for HotU; however, I am going to stick to a Monk build attacking with his fist. The first 16 character levels will all be Monk after that I was thinking about adding four levels of fighter if the character is human or Dwarven Defender if I play a dwarf.

    All of the level 4, 8, 12, 16, & 20 ability scores will be placed into Wisdom until it becomes 21.

    Human Abilities: STR 16 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8
    Human Abilities 2: STR 14 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 8
    Dwarf Abilities: STR 14 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 6
    Dwarf Abilities 2: STR 16 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 16 CHA 6
    Dwarf Abilities 3: STR 14 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 18 CHA 6

    Right now I am leaning towards Dwarf with Ability option 2. With level 17-20 all being Dwarven Defender and taking level 21 as a Monk to obtain the +4 Ki Strike. Though the option of having weapon specialization is enticing. I will take 4 levels of Fighters later on to have Weapon Specilization and Epic Weapon Specilization around level 27.

    By level 28 if I reach that my character will have be...

    Monk 18 w/ +5 Ki Strike
    Dwaren Defender 6
    Fighter 4

    Thoughts?
     
  9. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I did a Monk/DD once, and it was a nice build - very robust. I'm not sure the +3 vs +5 is really worth the trouble to start over again with a new character, though. My Monk/DD managed to do plenty of damage, damage reduction or no, and he had only +3 fists (though 22 STR). I think of Improved Ki Strike more as an added bonus if you do go Monk/Cleric or Monk/Druid. You could probably gain more by increasing your damage output through higher strength than through higher wisdom. There's just not much in the way of synergies.

    On the build: I'd make a 16 Monk/2 Fighter/ 2 DD, if you're going to go ahead with this build. That way, you can get your WS pre-epic and get EWS more quickly. 3 Fighter/ 1 DD would work as well. I'd ditch the extra Monk levels (at least while in HotU) - going to lvl 18 doesn't bring much. I'm not sure on the added bonuses you could gain from a 2 extra DD levels, though, so it might be that it doesn't matter much anyway. Alternatively, go for Monk lvl 20, as the added immunity to mind spells is great.
     
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    When I designed my original build of a Monk/Fighter/Rogue I figured by HotU the henchmen would be able to distract the enemies so that my character could flank them for sneak attacks.

    Even without sneak attack my character would be dangerous because WS and EWS provides +6 in damage, which equals a 24 STR.

    Given my character STR and having WS as it is my level 18 character currently does...1d12 + 4 damage. Add in EWS and it goes up to +8. Add in items that improve STR and the added damage would increase.

    I'm not all that fimiliar with damage reduction. I know 10 / - means the first ten points are ignored regards of the weapon. Just like fire resitance of 15 / - means the first 15 points of fire damage is ignored. When there is a 15 / +1, etc... I'm not sure if it means you need a +1 to hit or if it means that a +1 magical weapon ignores the damage reduction and normal weapons have to subract 15 from their damage.

    For example... A character has 10 / +4 damage reduction. My monk is level 16 and the fist are considred +3. Say I hit the character the damage would be equal to 1d20 for damage + 6 (WS / EWS) + 2 (STR) + 1d6 Fire & 1d6 Ice Glove Damage. Using the averages 10+6+2+3 Fire + 3 Ice...

    The fire and ice damage would hit as the character is not immune to that type of damage that would be 6 points plus 18 but since the enemy has DR 10/+4 I would do zero or 8? If it is the later, than I'm not going to stop with my build as I love my Human Monk/Rogue/Fighter and I always try to wear the belt that increase my character strength for added damage....
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2008
  11. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    It's the latter. A damage reduction of 10/+4 will absorb 10 points of damage if your fists hit as a +3 weapon, but with the Improved Ki Strike +4 or +5 you'll do full damage, according to the Neverwinter Grimoire that's available for download somewhere on SP.
     
  12. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The only problem I have with a monk/DD is the defensive stance is the exact opposite reason I like a monk. I want a fast, flexible assault weapon that can transition quickly from enemy to enemy -- even if that enemy is across the room.

    My monk/fighter was quite powerful with both kama and unarmed. Epic Weapon Specialization is great.

    I believe the monk attack gloves (Hin Fist, Long Death, etc) do attack as a weapon of the same plus.
     
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    It would be nice if there were gloves that did acid damage.
     
  14. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yeah, but the sonic damage from Hin Fist isn't bad -- there's only a few creatures immune (I think big M is).

    The ability to make dual +10 kamas with haste, keen, true seeing, spell resistance, regeneration and acid damage ... is nice. A monk 16/fighter X can have all the necessary feats to be great with both kama and unarmed. You can't really make good kamas until later in chp 2 anyway.
     
  15. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I started a quick game in HotU to check this against the iron golems on the golem island and I was surprised to find you're right on this. Maybe it was because I used those Fists of Balance for so long (which are +5) that I thought that bypassing DR was based on the fists, but when I just checked, I found that with the Fists of Balance I can't bypass the DR of the iron golems, but with the Gloves of Hin Fist +10 I can.
     
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    It is too bad that the game does not allow Monk Gloves enchantments to be increased. I would add Acid Damage, Haste, and any other enchantment possible to any of the Monk Gloves.
     
  17. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    ...which is why I said a dual-wielding kama monk has a slight advantage in the tougher battles. The majority of time, the 16+ level fist pounder will have the advantage.
     
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    A hasted monk level 16+ with 14 STR using furry of blows with 8 attacks a round would would average 96 points of damage a round. If the character has WS and EWS that damage would increase to 144 points of damage a round.

    A hasted monk/fighter dual-wielding kamas +10 with a 14 STR using furry of blows with improved two weapon style feat with 10 attacks a round would average 150. If that same character has WS and EWS the damage would increase to 210 points of damage a round.

    The average damage for the unarmed monk per a hit is 12 and with WS and EWS is 18.

    The average damage for a kama wielding with +10 kamas per a hit would be 15 and with WS and EWS is 21.

    The average value I used was 1/2 the value of the top value for the attack type. 1-20 = 10, 1-6 = 3 and than I added the bonuses from STR, WS, and EWS.

    To answer the questions about which one, kama monk vs. unarmed monk, is more powerful, the dual wielding kama monk is definitely the way to go if one wants to build a character designed to dish out the damage. When I designed my build I was designing him to be a well balanced character.
     
  19. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    MB: You're forgetting to add the damage from gauntlets.... +10 Gloves of the Hin Fist add 2d12 sonic damage (average of 7 points per attack). So you want to add 56 points of damage to your totals. Hence, a "hasted monk level 16+ with 14 STR using furry of blows with 8 attacks a round would average 152 points of damage a round. If the character has WS and EWS that damage would increase to 200 points of damage a round."

    Of course adding the acid damage to the kamas would increase their damage by 70 points as well. However, as you reduce the magical bonus of the weapons/gloves to +5 and below, the unarmed monk eclipses the dual kama monk (which is most of chapters one and two). The dual kama monk really becomes dominant in chapter three.

    Which is why I designed my monk for both....
     
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    I think HotU went overboard with the +10 weapons and items. I believe no D&D game should have any item higher than +5. An epic monk without any equipment can only achieve a +5 bonus; that should indicate how high of a bonus weapons should go. I mean in a game like HotU one or two special +6 weapons would be OK by me, but to be able to upgrade to a +10 weapon early on is crazy. With the gold I had on hand I was able to upgrade the Drow Crossbow +5 for Deekin to +10 with unlimited ammo and +5 might.

    Yeah, I had that much, slightly over a million gold pieces. That was after I purchased Hin Fist +7.

    So after that I decide to give myself a few million gold pieces to make Deekin and the drow dual-wield +10 weapons with as many enchantments on them as possible. The Drow is using the rapier and the shortsword. Her AC is 37 or 38. Deeking is using a mace and dagger. His AC is 32. My character AC is 44 and using Hin Fist +7. I got sick of being hit, now is the time to hit back and hit hard.

    Deekin and the Drow both have 4 or 5 attacks a round. I have 6 attack a round with flurry of blows.

    LOL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2008
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