1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

good and evil

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by schwartr, Dec 9, 2008.

  1. schwartr Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    After looking through a list of henchmen available in BG2 I realized there are not many true mages, they are all hybrids.

    Anyway, the mage I am eyeballin' is evil and my party is generally considered good. How does having good and evil in the same party work? Do they always end up fighting? Can you stop it?
     
  2. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    29
    schwartr, there's nothing wrong with Nalia. Sure, she has 4 levels of thief. But this doesn't inhibit her at all. In fact, those thief levels are actually useful for Nalia, since they allow her to wield the weapons that a thief could wield, which a pure mage wouldn't be able to do in BG2. Specifically, it lets her use crossbows and shortbows, which is nice for when you don't want to have her waste any spells. Other than that, Nalia really doesn't have enough skill points in any of the thieving skills to be of any use in that department.

    Consider that 4 levels of Thief is only 5,000 XP, which, in the grand scheme of things, is a drop in the vast ocean of XP in BG2.

    As far as good and evil NPC's being in the same party, I'm no expert on this but I do know that certain NPC's will have conflicts of varying degrees of severity with NPC's of opposite good vs. evil alignment. Also be aware that evil NPC's won't be particularly happy if your party's reputation gets too high, just as good NPC's won't be thrilled if your party's rep gets too low.
     
  3. starfox64 Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2005
    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    You should take a look at some of the various NPC guides here on SP and then post a question because they already contain the answers you're looking for.
     
  4. schwartr Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, ill look into her.

    The main reason I dont like hybrids is because they are considered as two people essentially. They take a lot longer to level up and by the time you need a specific high level skill/spell, they simply do not have it yet.

    As for nalia, it looks like she is similar to imoen. I can never remember the difference between mulit or dual classing, but both were thieves and are now mages (right?) so they can use what thief skills they have (and cannot level up as a thief any more) but now gain mage levels.....uhhh I think?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2008
  5. TrueBlueAussie Gems: 17/31
    Latest gem: Star Diopside


    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    1
    Nalia and Imoen will only level up as mages in BG2. While Nalia cant cut it as a thief, Imoen sure can, especially when you use a few items to boost her stats or a potion of master thievery.

    As for the difference between a thief/mage and a mage/thief, one is a multi class and the other is a dual class. A multi class is splitting the XP between the 2 classes. Like you said, its like playing 2 characters but it can be extremely effective. Dual classing can only be done by humans and its where they stop earning XP towards one class and start earning it for another of their choice. They can never swith back to the old class though.
     
  6. Shaitan

    Shaitan Always forgive your enemies; it annoys them so

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    5
    There're items to compensate for that. I've used Nalia plenty of times as my one and only thief. She's good enough for what she should IMO pick locks and find traps.
     
  7. kmonster Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    1,917
    Likes Received:
    24
    I think Minsc is the only character who might fight Edwin but I'm not sure. When your reputation gets higher than 18 evil characters will leave your party.
    If you don't need those artificial reputation restrictions which caused many players to anti-roleplay you can also install a "happy party" mod to remove them.

    PS: The maximum mage Level Nalia,Imoen or Edwin can reach within the SoA XPCap is 17, only the multiclasses Jan and Aerie are restricted to level 13 (but they still can provide sufficient power for both their classes).
     
  8. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    You can find "(Aldeth the Foppish) Idiot’s Guide to the NPC’s" on this page. It's quite useful.
     
  9. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    Any of the mages in the game have enough power to get you through SoA. I like to have two mages in my parties -- one dedicated (Nalia, Imoen, or Edwin) and one multiclass (Aerie or Jan). Between the two they can take care of most magical issues.

    But you really should take Edwin for at least a little while -- do his quest (slight spoiler -- let him keep it and experiment). His comments in general are quite funny.
     
  10. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,109
    Media:
    99
    Likes Received:
    99
    Gender:
    Male
    I can see the problem about taking Edwin since you have to murder someone to get him in your party. Most good parties don't object, I feel it irksome to say the least. I won't go over that particular issue since I'm clearly in the minority but I hardly think a Paladin would comply with doing Renal's dirty work. Other goody two shoes types might though but IMO it's still rather unpalatable. That being said there are alternatives to having Edwin in your party (not to mention the fact that a [ToB class] PC will be more powerful and more fun except maybe for the quest T2Bruno refers to).

    [SoA-only forum... -Tal]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2008
  11. pplr Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,030
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    34
    I agree that there are alternatives to having Edwin around. I generally use good parties so this is what I do. In relation to Mae'Var (and the Shadow Thieves in general), I believe that Keldorn complains but doesn't leave the party. I know someone doesn't like the mission (Aerie?) you are referring to and also says something. Note that you don't have to kill the person Mae'Var wants you to. You can just dialogue your way out of it.

    There are a number of places where what you chose to say determines if you get into a fight or not. Or, in the case of the fallen paladins, how many of them fight against you (you can figure out who may choose to walk away via "know alignment" spells in this last example).


    Besides, maybe the game should give you some sort of grand/overall plot points for getting rid of Renal (tricky but possible), Mae'Var, the slavers, Bodhi, the S. Thieves, and the Rune folks. After doing all this maybe you could get remarks out of the city guards about the sudden drop in crime in the city. But this last bit is just me commenting.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2008
  12. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    29

    Both Nalia and Imoen are dual class, meaning that they stopped earning XP in their first class (thief), and 100% of their future XP are going towards their 2nd class (wizard).

    The real "hybrids" to be concerned about, schwartr, are the multiclassed NPC's, who are truly and evenly splitting all of their earned XP between a couple of classes. Now, this isn't to say that such characters don't have their uses. They do. Aerie (wiz/cleric) and Jan Jansen (wiz/thief) are both multiclassed wizzies, and neither is really well suited to being a party's primary wizard. But both can be very useful as a secondary wizard, because they do bring other useful abilities to the party (Jan as a thief, Aerie as a cleric). And, yes, MC'd "hybrids" will take longer to level up. That's the price they pay to have 2 sets of advancing abilities. Personally, I tend to prefer the pure class or dual classed NPC's to the multiclassed ones. But MC'd NPC's can be quite useful if used properly.


    The key thing to remember about Nalia is that, IIRC, she has only 4 levels of thief ... which is only 5,000 XP ... which in the grand scheme of things is a tiny drop in the vast ocean of XP in BG2. The primary benefit that those thief levels gives Nalia, IMHO, is the ability to wield thief weapons, particularly crossbows and shortbows, which I find a useful way for Nalia (or Imoen) contribute offensively when you don't want to cast spells too hastily.


    As far as the value of Nalia and Imoen as thieves, Imoen is passable for most things, after you rescue her. Nalia, not so much. One mod that can help is the NPC Kit Pack over at G3 that adjusts their thief class to the "Adventurer" thief kit, which adds +20% to Open Locks and Find/Remove Traps but removes the backstab multiplier (which for Nalia or Imoen shouldn't be a problem). An "adventurer" thief is more like a "combat engineer" thief for adventuring parties, rather than a backstabbing assassin sort of thief, and really seems to be a perfect description of the sort of thieving skills that Nalia or Imoen would contribute to any party. (Also, when using this kitpack for Nalia, even she becomes much more passable for Locks/Traps duty, particularly when you give her some skill enhancing items. Of course, it will help Imoen out even more, helping her go from merely passable to being pretty good.)


    On the subject of how many mages to have in a party, I largely agree with T2Bruno. Having 2 mages in a party is very useful in BG2, in particular to deal with the considerable number of spellcasters and spellcasting monsters. In fact, for me, it's less about having 2 mages' worth of offensive (i.e. damage causing) spellcasting than it is to have 2 mages that can cast anti-magic spells to take down enemy spellcasters' protections. (It's a whole lot easier to deal with a nasty ol' dragon when you don't let it maintain any stoneskin spells for protection.)
     
  13. olimikrig

    olimikrig Cavalier of War Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,876
    Media:
    472
    Likes Received:
    21
    Gender:
    Male
    I think they're referring to the guy Edwin asks you to murder.
     
  14. pplr Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,030
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    34
    Yeah, killing that Cowled Wizard is unavoidable if you want Edwin. I was troubled by it for awhile but once I used detect evil with him in the room I didn't.

    But being sent out to kill someone shouldn't make you feel too good in a good party. That the Cowled Wizards are unfair and unsympathetic to other spellcasters makes it easier as well as his alignment. But I can see why people would be troubled.
     
  15. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,109
    Media:
    99
    Likes Received:
    99
    Gender:
    Male
    If you cast it in the first place it means breaking and entering with the intention to kill him. Not something I would consider if I played a pally.

    That being said, casting detect evil and killing the person that goes "ping" is not really "good" in my books, it's more a fanatical outlook on life (a reason why I loathe keldorn).

    Viconia is a good example. Beshaba is an evil deity so the priests who want to burn her are evil but she is evil too. Would a good character let her burn?

    What makes Viconia evil? Perhaps it is her upbringing and the fact that she worships an evil deity (Shar). Does this justify killing her? I don't have a ready made answer but IMO a really good person wouldn't condone her actions but would work to help her redeem herself provided that she agrees to try.

    Regarding the person Edwin asks you to kill, you could say that he is evil therefore he has to die but that is an extreme position that to me is quite unsavory.

    I insist that although it may look that way, I'm not criticizing your way of playing the game, I'm just saying that maybe there is more to this, maybe things are not so simple.

    Playing a good character who insists on doing the right thing all the time can lead to interesting RPing situations like the dilemma when you decide to accept Aran Linvail's offer so you can rescue Imoen. Do you think Aran Linvail is good? Certainly not but he is certainly the lesser evil.

    The way alignments work in the game offer a simplification and a rationale for behaving like this, killing bad guys because they're evil but IMO a better option would be to consider the character's actions AND intentions when deciding what would be a "good" option.

    Anyway, I don't mean to be telling anyone how to play, that's just my take on the game but I'm convinced morals can be a great addition for any good protagonist.
     
  16. schwartr Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you still get all the bickering with this mod just with out the violence?

    Sounds nice, but I kinda like listening to the bickering at least once.
     
  17. pplr Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,030
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    34
    You are quite right in many ways. Actions are important and in a more open role-playing situation you should look at them closely. But one of the things about paladins is that they have an inbuilt method of knowing if they should harbor doubts about someone and either attack or attempt to reform them.

    Also, all paladins don't have to be "fanatics" and one doesn't need to be a paladin to be a "fanatic".

    Though I do admit liking paladin's ping abilities. On a tactical level it gives you a hint at how many enemies are about in a given area in the game.

    SPOILER WARNING (avert eyes if you want)

    Aran may appear to be the lesser evil, but if you join Bodhi first and later fight her that means you take out 2 evils in the long run rather than leaving one behind to continue. Its a cheap bit of knowing the plot but it is also an arguable greater good in the long run.

    No, you cannot (without cheating) have the followers of Beshaba join your party. As such you have no option to talk with and try to reform them. Anyone who can join your party will have at least some banter with you thus an option is open with Viccy, but not them. On the other hand a fanatic may just wipe them all out.... time to get Keldorn.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2008
  18. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    Keldorn is not a fanatic -- he's just very prejudiced against Drow (which is not unreasonable given the history of the drow).

    Evil is simply selfishness. Viccy is all about taking care of herself when you first meet her. As the story line progresses, she starts to shift away from that -- which causes inner conflict (I thought the story line was well written).

    IMO, paladins should fall if they turn on their "evil radar" and just start killing anything that pings. People can be selfish (evil) and harmless. It is the paladin's duty to stop those who are selfish and willing to harm others for their own gains.

    According to the original AD&D rules: Paladins will work with neutral characters if they see the greater good in the cause, but will never willingly align themselves with evil. I think Aran is neutral, not evil -- taking him out is not for the greater good as he may well be replaced by an evil thief. He is aligning himself with [CHARNAME] to confront a common enemy. I see nothing wrong with a paladin siding with Aran -- but I could never see a paladin siding with a vampire.

    As far as killing the cowled wizard ... my paladin let the first thief off the hook. I went to the CW thinking I could do the same. I talked to him, he was rude, I tried to talk with him again and he attacked. Here I was trying to help him and I ended up having to kill him just to stay alive myself -- I saw no conflict in the situation for any good character. The story could have been written differently where the CW basically forced you to murder him (instead of being a jerk). Under those different circumstances a paladin or ranger should fall if they actually go through with the assassination.
     
  19. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,109
    Media:
    99
    Likes Received:
    99
    Gender:
    Male
    I get that but all the same working for Edwin doesn't look like a "good" idea to me. ;)

    Still I agree the CW is not the most friendly wizard in the Docks.
     
  20. starfox64 Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2005
    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    The fact that Edwin openly insults you when you meet him is a good indication of what kind of person he is. He's "right hand man" to a guy with a torture chamber in his basement whose torturing his own cousin when you arrive. He's hanging out in a place called "The Thieves Guild". He's a Red Wizard of Thay. Any quest he gives you should make you think twice about completing if your loyalties lie along a more noble path. I can't imagine breaking into anybody's house and murdering them is acceptable to anybody with a good alignment. I don't see how you can rationalize such an action.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.