1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Germany: Parents Cannot Get Boys Circumcised

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Blackthorne TA, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,407
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    231
    Gender:
    Male
    Religious circumcisions are ruled grievous bodily harm by a German court.

    Something to celebrate, or should there be wailing and gnashing of teeth?

    I imagine these days it depends on your religious persuasion. I know in my parent's day circumcision was considered advantageous for hygienic reasons, but that seems to be changing in more modern times.
     
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    Good riddance, there is a lot of lamenting about female circumcision (which obviously is much much much worse) but male circumcision has the same root and objectives. It should not be allowed. If you want to mutilate your penis do so when you are old enough to make that decision yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  3. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,224
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    218
    Gender:
    Female
    On the other side of the coin, there are a group of MP's in Zimbabwe (I think) who have just got circumcised and are trying to convince others to do so as well as it is thought that it may help stop the spread of HIV/AIDS
     
  4. Darion

    Darion Resident Dissident Veteran BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    801
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    42
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah, that one argument came up too. Preventing STD and such.:rolleyes:
    People are a funny bunch!

    I personally don't care if some religious groups practice this kind of thing.
    It just should not be conducted by doctors in secret.
    On op of that, Germany has no tradition regarding circumcision, and doesn't need one!
     
  5. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    My religion does not demand circumcision. I was circumcised for sanitary reasons -- as BTA mentioned, that's why many people in North America did it in the last century. I've heard that there are solid studies that have determined that it cuts down on STI transmission.

    I do not believe that the root goal of male circumcision was ever to decrease sexual satisfaction. Lots of people have asserted that in the past, but I certainly don't see any evidence of that being a motive in the Old Testament. Of course, circumcision has been practiced by groups other than the Abrahamic religion, but insofar as the Jews and Muslims are concerned, I am pretty positive it's a sign of devotion to God.
     
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    Even if it would be "hygienic" which I highly doubt as evolution is fairly good at removing things that are negative for our health while adding things that are good (which I am fairly sure is the case with the foreskin) no one expects infants to engage in unprotected sex so again, let the adult male make that decision himself.

    What is a fact is that a tip unprotected by a foreskin is vastly less sensitive than one with. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is up to each, less enjoyment but you will probably last longer which I guess your partner will appreciate. It also makes it much harder to masturbate, while growing up I never understood why there were so many lube jokes and whatnot in American comedies, why would you need lube to spank the monkey? You don't, unless you are circumcised. There are compelling arguments that what started for some reason by the Jews supposedly as some kind of religious devotion thing was hi-jacked by conservative religious fanatics in the US around the turn of the century or so (some recollection of Kolleg launching some major campaign or somesuch) with the claim of it being hygienic but the real reason being to make it harder to masturbate (as it is not allowed according to the bible and why I am sure this was the original reason that got the whole thing started. Probably something that started with some ascetic hermit who wanted to focus solely on god and couldn't cause he kept touching himself this last bit is my own private idea and patent is pending).
     
    Silvery likes this.
  7. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    The whole hygienic angle is nonsense - we've had soap for a few thousand years now and we're not in the Dark Ages any more when people bathed once a year. It's also been rejected by the majority of the doctors world-wide a long time ago. In fact, there are many countries (especially in Europe) where it was never done at all because it was viewed as completely unnecessary mutilation. So, yea, unless there is a valid medical reason for a circumcision, or if somebody wants to have their genital area mutilated for religious purposes as an adult, it just shouldn't be done.
     
  8. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,098
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    104
    Gender:
    Male
    AFAIK only female circumcision (not the barbaric kind) provides -some- protection against STDs (statistics-wise, iirc) but only in countries where STDs are rampant in the first place.

    In a country like Germany I doubt any kind of circumcision has any value besides religious/cultural/aesthetic ones.
     
  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, there was mention that STD's (including HIV) are harder to transmit if circumcised. I'd say that might qualify as a valid medical reason if true (no idea if it is or not).

    On a personal note, I was circumcised at 8 days and I must say, if that equates to less sensitivity and longer staying power, then my girlfriends from my teenage years and early 20's should write to the moyel who did it (if he's still alive) with thanks, because I can't imagine how unhappy they would have been if I had more sensitivity and less staying power! (I suppose the rest is MUG material . . . ) :p
     
  10. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    That's also bunk dmc because without a condom you're not getting protected against hundreds of possible STDs. Unless circumcision offered immunity from STDs (it does not), making it slightly harder to get some of them isn't much help, is it?

    A quote from the article:

    And I should emphasize here that of the Western world, American doctors have stuck with the notion that circumcision should be performed on all baby boys the longest - simply because it was such a deeply rooted tradition, with excuses along the lines that, well, boys who weren't circumcised would be ridiculed in communal showers, if nothing else.

    Uh. Yea. Top medical reasoning there...

    Oh and dmc... or you could have put a condom on and achieved about the same effect. :shake:
     
  11. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    Dude - that was with a condom! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  12. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    This case is interesting. Legally, even a hair cut that hasn't been consented to is bodily harm. From that perspective the ruling is straightforward. It is also logical since in the west we usually don't accept circumcision for females - now why is it ok for boys but abhorrent for girls? The case also nicely illustrates the potential health risks involved in the procedure.

    The very obvious possibility is that the court didn't fully take into account the basic right of religious freedom. The case can and will be made that they didn't. The case is also interesting in light of the limits it puts on parent's rights to make decisions for their children. I need to read the ruling before I write more.

    It also probably isn't over yet. It was a verdict by the Landgericht. It is reasonably certain that it will be appealed in a higher court and that it will end up in the constitutional court if the higher court upholds the ruling.
     
  13. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    If circumcision is the normal I think it is hard to accept that it would not be something positive. Most people do not want to think that their parents hurt them when they were infants or even that they themselves have hurt their male children. Norms are really hard to change, we are appalled that "less developed" parts of the world have what we see as barbaric traditions but it is the norm there and it is very hard to change. We find ripping out the clitoris to be not nice while it is perfectly normal in some parts of the world and people do not see it is as such a bid deal.
     
  14. Silvery

    Silvery I won't pretend to be your friend coz I'm just not ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,224
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    218
    Gender:
    Female
    Taluntain likes this.
  15. koliva Gems: 2/31
    Latest gem: Fire Agate


    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    I think it's a very brave decision, especially in the light of Germany's history with the Jews.

    The right to religious freedom should not cover circumcision. Arguing for the right of parents to mutilate their children is akin to arguing for the right of Muslim terrorists to blow up buildings. Both the parents and the terrorists are practicing their respective religion. If the child wants a circumcision, he should be able to get one after he reaches the age of majority.

    As for the "I'm OK with my circumcision" objection, check out this video of women who grew up in a culture where FGM is prevalent:



    Do they sound somehow familiar?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2015
  16. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Good points, Joa.

    What feminist women rights enthusiasts almost always overlook when they justifiably decry the barbaric practice of female circumcision in countries like Egypt is that this is not a matter of male dominance that imposes this on Woman. It wouldn't be as persistent a practice if the women (mothers, grandmothers) weren't in on it. To see it any other way means having serious delusions about the socio-cultural 'norm', as you call it, in Egypt.

    They do it because they have always done it. Habits, retroactively justified by religion, are hard to break. Iirc the practise of female circumcision pre-dates Islam.

    But anyway, the point remains - why is it abhorrent when done to woman while it is considered ok for men? I find it hard to justify the outrage over one but not the other. Why the double standard? There is no rational justification for that. Circumcision on males of females has about the same effects. One feels tempted to add that, unlike their critics, the Egyptians at least are consistent in that they circumcise both men and woman alike.

    Those men who are circumcised will probably remark that the practice in no way impacts their 'performance' but as to the loss of sensitive tissue, it is impossible for them to tell because they haven't known it any other way. How can a blind man know what seeing is like? Probably, Egyptian woman who don't object to the practice similarly rationalise the consequences of female circumcision. Female circumcision of course is asserted to prevent sl*ttiness, and it is not a coincidence that circumcision was popularised in the US for instance, in order to prevent boys from masturbating. Of course, reducing sensitivity was the very point of the exercise.

    IMO circumcision, male of female, is as silly a practice as getting a piercing, boob implants, docking a dog's ears and tail, or filing one's teeth sharp.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 14 minutes and 20 seconds later... ----------

    Preposterous, especially that bit that Islamist terrorists are practising their religion, Islam, when they commit acts of violence. Your also adding insult to idiocy since that implies that violence is part of the exercise of Islam.

    The problem is that our view of circumcision as bodily harm is something very recent and modern that has developed in, say, the last 30 years, and it is challenging practices that have been in use for about four millennia in Judaism and were later adopted in Islam.

    Anyone who expects the billion Muslims or so to change their minds over that over night, because of our well founded, differing views, is a deluded fool, who, like the egregious Tom Friedman, believes that 'the earth is flat' and that everybody basically is or wants to be like us awesome westerners.

    Tell that the Afghans, where, as a result of a millennium of segregation of women in order to control a clan's bloodline, pederasty is a common phenomenon. "A women for children, a boy for love and a goat for a change" iirc is an Afghan proverb. Probably we just need to tell the Afghans that pederasty is bad and abhorrent and they will see the light and change their ways.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  17. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    Ohh, I thought nobody used condoms yet back then!

    :lol:
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    But wouldn't the reverse also be true? How can someone who isn't circumcised know to what affect the performance is affected of someone who is circumcised? Again, you either are or you aren't, and so naturally you are only going to have the experience one way or the other. What if the difference is so marginal that it makes no meaningful difference? Sure, guys that are circumcised may not know what it's like to experience sex uncircumcised, but that is equally true when applied in reverse.

    That said, I do agree that the most sensible approach would be to not do it, at least until you're older, as the supposed benefits - lesser transmission of STDs - are of no concern to infants.
     
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Aldeth,
    of course, but, so what? The loss of nerve saturated tissue is something that has an impact. There is a reason why folks like Kellogg saw in that a way to keep boys from masturbating. Killjoy spoilsports that they were, they were trying to take the fun out of it.
     
  20. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,765
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    440
    Gender:
    Male
    WTF ... when circumcised the most sensitive part is exposed. The shaft and foreskin have some sensitivity but that's minor compared to the glans (especially the underside). Just because the skin of the glans is dry on circumcised men does not mean the concentration of nerve endings has been altered. I don't see how there could be any significant decrease in sensitivity.

    Sil: I found the article very humorous. I always enjoy it when authors seek to promote an agenda (although the dryness issue was interesting ... but, come on, use a little KY or don't pull out all the way). They specifically left out one little thing I found on WebMD:

    Penis cancer is very rare in the U.S. Circumcision decreases the risk of penis cancer.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.