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Dual-class weapon restrictions

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale (Classic)' started by Gregorovitch, Aug 25, 2012.

  1. Gregorovitch Gems: 2/31
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    Decided to have a run through of IWD after a few years and also decided to do something I've never done before, experiment with a few multi- and dual-class characters. Been reading up on it and I'm confused on the rules regarding weapon restrictions for dual-class characters:

    I read for example that dualling Fighter 3 -> Mage is cool since you can get *** in bows.
    On the other hand I read that when choosing weapon proficiency for a fighter 3 -> Cleric you want to choose Maces or Hammers or with a Fighter 3 -> druid scimitars and spears are good and in both cases slings.

    So yeah, Clerics can't use Swords but similarly Mage's cant use bows, so why do people talk about Fighter 3 -> Mage using bows?

    I can't find a straight forward list or explanation of exactly what weapons dual-classed characters can use so I'm hoping someone her can enlighten me.
     
  2. Topken

    Topken Elven-dragon wizard

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    I want to say that fighters/celrics are restricted to the weapons that clerics are restriced to and that for the bows for fighters/wizards you have to play as an elf becuase from what I remember they as mages can use bows along with a few other weapons that mages can not use.
     
  3. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I'm not sure if this works the same way as it does in Baldur's Gate, but there clerics and druids were not allowed to use certain weapon due to their classes "ethos." For example, clerics weren't supposed to use any bladed weapons, since apparently slicing a foe is naughty. Beating their head in with a mace on the other is perfectly fine.

    2nd Edition AD&D had a lot of bizarre restrictions like this.

    At any rate, mages have no such "ethos" restrictions with regards to weapons. They can use any weapon they are familiar with. This means that any "fighter" weapon (e.g. axe, bow, halberd, etc) that they know how to use due to their fighter levels, they are free to use as a fighter mage.

    IWD is the only IE game that I haven't played in close to 10 years -- the rest I tend to play at least every 2 - 4 years -- so I'm pretty rusty on the specific rules of this game. That said, if they are following 2nd Edition D&D as they supposedly are, weapon restrictions should work similarly to those of Baldur's Gate.

    EDIT - 2,000th post
     
  4. Topken

    Topken Elven-dragon wizard

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    Unless I am thinking of 3rd ED myself. Yeah Icewind Dale uses 2nd Ed rules.
     
  5. Gregorovitch Gems: 2/31
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    congrats on 2000th post!

    OK so Jaheira can't use anything but spear, club, scimitar and sling or dart even though she is multi fighter/druid (in BG2) 'cos of this "ethos" applied to divine casting classes. So if this is the case I am wondering what the big deal is about dual classing clerics/druids since they can't use cool weapons. Just a few extra HP or can they continue to specialise in their allowed weapons on account of the Fighter element?

    What's really confusing me is I just played through BG2 again and I found Jaheira was limited to ** but Anomen could have his mace rating increased to *****.

    I can't be an Elf for a Fighter 3 -> Mage since only humans can dual class - so can I be sure that if I start a human as fighter, get *** in Bows (lev 3) I can then switch to Mage and actually use the bow? Do I have to wait until I re-activate the Fighter element at Lev 4 Mage before I can equip a bow again?

    I'd really like a definitive understanding of this before I play through the first two chapters and find I can't do what I intended to do and have to start all over again.
     
  6. Topken

    Topken Elven-dragon wizard

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    You keep all your previous stats and skills when you dual class into a mage from a fighter. So you can still use the bow when you hit mage level 1
     
  7. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    A couple of points here. First off, you really don't want to go without a priest, so in spite of their limited weapon selection (compared to a fighter), their spells and healing abilities are pretty much a must for every party.

    That said, there are awesome flails, scimitars, spears etc to find in the game. Anomen from BG2, for example, with grandmastery in flails and the Flail of Ages is an absolute monster. You are going to want to have some guys specialized in blunt weaponry anyway, so it's not like you're sacrificing anything here. Priests can be potent fighters, especially when they have some actual fighter levels to work with.

    This is simply the difference between a multiclass and a dual class character. Multiclass characters (i.e. non humans that progress in 2 or more classes simultaneously) are restricted to two proficiency points in weapons. Humans who start as fighters, and can gain 5 proficiency points in weapons work differently when they dual class, and once they have regain their fighter abilties they will retain any higher proficiency levels they originally gained as a fighter, and will be able to raise any new weapons to the highest proficiency levels for the remainder of their adventuring careers.

    Yes, during that period when your fighter levels are not active, you will not be able to use any fighter specific weapons. Another one of the really bizarre 2ED rules. Yeah, you're a GRANDMASTER with axes, but you're somehow incapable of holding one until your power as a mage reaches a certain level.

    Again, my responses are based on the assumption that IWD works like BG, so please bear that in mind.
     
  8. Gregorovitch Gems: 2/31
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    Cheers, I think I got it now.

    Yeah, Anomen sure is a monster in BG2 and i can see now how his fighter levels contribute to that.

    I suppose they had to put some restrictions and awkwardness into the rules 'cos they felt there had to be some sort of downside to dual classing from fighters. Even so having a priest with ***** in hammers/flails/maces and slings or a mage with 18 DEX and *** in bows seems pretty awesome.

    Pity they all have to be humans :(
     
  9. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I prefer clubs and scimitars for dual-classed druids in IWD. There no enchanted clubs, but you get the druid spells Shillelagh and Star Metal Cudgel. The latter is one of the more powerful weapons in the game.
     
  10. Gregorovitch Gems: 2/31
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    OK, so everything has gone more or less according to plan and as expected - my priest, druid and a pair of mages who all took three levels of fighter at the start have successfully recovered there weapon proficiencies on reaching level 4 in their new classes and of course have a load of extra HP to boot. Nice. And thanks everyone for the clarifications.

    For completeness though there is a loose end I can't tie up:

    Neither my fighter 3 -> druid nor my fighter 3 -> cleric can now add additional weapon proficiency points - not even raising a skill from * to ** - although they recovered the *** skills they got at level 3 fighter. But in BG2 Anomen who is fighter 7 -> cleric IIRC can push his mace skill up to *****.

    So what gives? Is it

    a) BG2 rules where changed from IWD
    b) Anomen was specially programmed to do this in BG2
    c) Some other reason
     
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I imagine Anomen is special, but I don't recall how the games actually implemented this feature.

    As I recall, the way dual classed characters work is they cannot progress in their first class any longer although they retain what they already learned. Since only fighters can get more than one * and none of your characters are fighters any longer, none of them can have more than one * unless they already had them when they were fighters.
     
  12. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    This sounds like a difference between IWD and Baldur's Gate. I am able to raise weapon stats to grandmastery for characters other than Anomen in Baldur's Gate.
     
  13. SlickRCBD Gems: 24/31
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    That's actually a bug in the Infinity Engine or something they deliberately changed. In P&P you couldn't further specialize your weapons once you stopped being a warrior. New proficiency points had to be allocated using the rules for your new class. Also, IIRC, fighter/druids of both dual and multi varieties had the same armor restrictions as a regular druid. Finally, in P&P, the weapon and armor restrictions for a cleric varied from faith to faith, although the "only blunt weapons" was the default rule.

    You could, but then you would either forfeit any XP earned in the encounter or get a 90% penalty for a good long time (DM's discretion, and I forgot the exact rules as it's been nearly 15 years since my AD&D group broke up).


    IWD1 and BG1 have virtually identical mechanics, but a different spell selection. At least without the HoW expansion. HoW gives you a few psudo-3E options and some extra druid stuff.
     
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