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Dog Walker Tased by Park Ranger

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Blackthorne TA, Feb 1, 2012.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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  2. The Kilted Crusader

    The Kilted Crusader The Famous Last words "Hey guys, watch THIS!" Veteran

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    Considering the ranger wouldn't tell him why he was being stopped, I would have done the same thing and walked off.
     
  3. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    If that happened to me, that Ranger would get it tenfold in return. Tasing in the back, what a coward....
     
  4. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    I have to ask, are tasers just toys in the US? they seem to be issued to the most lowly form of security possible, are the issued to hall monitors in school too? what about toilet attendents? have they got them? obviously I'm kidding about the hall monitors.

    in the UK these are only deployed by highly trained firearms officers, every tom dick and harry has one in the US.
     
  5. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Most officers who have weapons also have tasers -- which means a lot of law enforcement officers who use the taser instead of negotiation.
     
  6. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    Im fine with police officers having tasers, though I do feel that US police (probably other forces around the world that widely deploy firearms) resort to the taser rather then other policing talent. Its these low level security staff having them I take issue with... I mean, the park service... really? this 'ranger' is just a step up from a gardner, and he's armed with a taser....
    lets give them to kids in school, sounds like a good idea to me.
     
  7. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I guess I'm a stickler for rules, but if the guy had just not acted like a douche, he wouldn't have been tased. I don't understand why people are always so quick to cheer on people who act in a disrespectful manner toward authority figures who are just doing their jobs. As I've said before, I have always been polite to cops and other such people, and have never had a problem.
     
  8. Confused Guyy Gems: 1/31
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    Taser was overkill but the guy can't really complain.

    If you break a rule you break rule... You can't disrespect authority and then complain there were consequences.
     
  9. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    That must be why you're confused Shoshino -- National Park Service Rangers are federal law enforcement officers.
     
  10. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I don't think anyone is cheering the dog walker. He disobeyed a lawful order, sure, and could have been arrested for that. Did she try to arrest him? It seems not; she decided to tase him as he walked away. Should a taser be employed if the subject has not displayed resistance?

    Even if the guy ran away and she could not catch him, so what? He was walking his dogs where it was perfectly legal to do so in the past. I don't think a tasering is warranted under the circumstances presented.
     
  11. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    I have no doubt T2, I too by holding an SIA (security Industry Authority) licence am empowered by the private security industry act as a law enforcement figure as such I have the power to use force to prevent a crime from being committed when my licence is displayed (we generally wear them on an armband).

    Should I have a taser?
     
  12. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    <irony>But why, sure the man has done something to deserve it.

    For instance: The dog walker could have sent his dog to attack the officer, or he could have set forth to attack the officer himself - both risks were handily avoided by incapacitating the man. Since the officer cannot look into the man's head, and since the man's innocent appearance could be a deception, it is absolutely reasonable for the officer to expect the worst from this citizen, an play it super safe. Officer safety is paramount after all.</irony>

    As for the dog walker disobeying a lawful order, it is too bad that a citizen has to obey first and can only clarify the lawfulness later, since by resisting or disobeying they give the officer justification to use force, irrespective of the officer's order having been lawful in the first place. I mean, he disobeyed an order to leash his dog, and the officer tasered him? He isn't in the military or something. I have some serious difficulties with the concept that citizens have "to obey orders", lawful or not.

    Excessive. Period. I mean, let us keep in mind that this was originally about a minor problem to public safety that was posed by the unleashed dog. Probably, this was about enforcing a city statute - with such force? In my country we exclusively task civilian authorities with enforcement of city ordinances. Works swell, and it has the charm to keep unruly dog walkers out of our jails, and prevents them from being tasered. To a hammer every problem looks like a nail. The cop faced a challenge to her authority, so so decided to use her taser to reassert herself and break resistance by using a taser. People have died from having been taserd, and she employs it in a matter so minor? Silly, and dangerously silly on top of that.

    In my country this issue, unleashed dogs, is considered so minor and unproblematic that we deliberately do not task police with bothering about it, precisely to avoid instances like that. For the same reason you don't task soldiers with enforcing criminal laws, as a result of their training they just may call in an air strike or shoot resisters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  13. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    Some people are asses, but I think the ranger wasn't exactly properly either. Notice: "Babcock said Hesterberg had repeatedly asked the ranger why he was being detained. She didn't answer him, Babcock said."


    Now if that is true, I can see the guy thinking this is BS and leaving. The ranger tells him to stay put, he asks why, doesn't get any answer, and tries to leave - iirc that is repeated several times. I don't think either was acting particularly well here. Considering the man wasn't doing anything dangerous (and likely didn't know he was doing something illegal), the fact that some uniform was trying to detain him without giving any reason for it, I'm not exactly shocked he didn't take it seriously. BTW, is trying to command someone without telling them the reason for it even legal in the US? Because if a cop just came up and told me to follow him, without giving me a reason for it, I'd be more than a little wary.

    Overall, I think both guys did wrong. The fact that the man was since released imo indicates that the park administration wasn't happy how the ranger handled it either. Speaking of which, is there an instruction on whether you should warn a (non-violent) perpetrator that you intend to use force comparable to a taser gun?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  14. Darion

    Darion Resident Dissident Veteran BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Spot on!
    Well put.
     
  15. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I would really hope that this story is not giving a full version of the events. Certainly tasing is excessive if the only thing the guy was doing wrong was walking a dog without a leash at a location in which it was perfectly legal to walk a dog without a leash as recently as one month ago.

    That said, I'm sure this isn't the first person who has been stopped in the past month since this law went into affect for having an unleashed dog. Presumably, these other people weren't tased. I cannot help but think that there is something else going on here that we aren't being told. Tasing would be excessive no matter what, but I can see how it could come to that - him getting his ass tased - if he was being a complete prick to the ranger. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying I can see how it could happen.
     
  16. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    As for "not the full story" - maybe the dog walker looked at her cross eyed, maybe he swore, or said something smart - so what? Self restraint and discipline part of a police officer's job description. It's just as much part of the job as "putting the life on the line". Even when something like that happened, so what? It must not make a difference. So, while I can see how it could happen, I also see that it doesn't matter, and it is not just "not right" but something serious.

    The problem I see here that if she decided to taser him for being an ass, she didn't do anything about the danger posed by the dog - by tasering the man, the dog didn't get leashed - with the man down the dog was not just unleashed but left without anyone to control it, indeed, dogs tend to be aggravated when someone attacks their master - so she aggravated the situation. Still worse than that, she made the dog walker an object lesson for what happens when you disobey a park ranger, much like a thug would beat up someone for 'street cred'.

    Cops of various stripes exercise city, state or federal authority. Abuse of that authority, or use of excessive force to enforce that authority, by individuals is capricious, if that happens systematically it is tyranny. It actually is that stark.
     
  17. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I am assuming she was a law enforcement ranger, which requires extensive training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (otherwise she would have been arrested for assault). I don't agree with what she did, but that guy was stupid.

    I think in any country, under nearly any circumstance, if you blow off a federal law enforcement official (FBI, DEA, whatever the equivalent is in any country, even Interpol) it is not generally viewed kindly by the law enforcement official. In some countries it will get you shot, in some only detained ... injury is always a possibility; being allowed to tell the law enforcement professional to 'mind their own business' and stroll away is never an option.

    The guy paid (and probably will pay even more) for his deception and stupidity.

    Shoshino, an SIA is not in the same league as a federal officer; not in the same league as an officer in a city, county or state for that matter.
     
  18. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Honest question here T2.... a Ranger has that kind of authority and training?
     
  19. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Good thing for Yogi that Mr. Ranger never had a taser...
     
    Blades of Vanatar likes this.
  20. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    I know its not the same T2, thats not what I'm saying, what Im pointing out is that the idea of park rangers being federal officers armed with tasers is in its own right excessive, we have rangers here... we call them 'parkies' they are armed with an overall. It isnt on any level necessary to have these officers as they exist, the odds of them dealing with hardened armed criminals is slim to none, and should they encounter such a situation, they call for the police.

    the taser is just being deployed like a toy and used like one too.
     
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