1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Democracy

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Mithrantir, Jun 25, 2003.

  1. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    This question is bugging the last two years how do you perceive the term democracy and do you believe that the idea or better yet the political system of democracy is applied anywhere in this world.
    And one final what do you think we can do in order to see one day true democracy;
     
  2. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lol, the answer is simple, when you are a nationalist like me. In the whole wide world, there is only one true democracy. The Helvetic Confederation. :D ;) :angel:

    Waving that white cross on a red background.
     
  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    377
    Gender:
    Male
    Yago, pardon my ignorance, but do you vote on each and every law and/or policy in your country, where the majority vote carries the day? That's a pure democracy. Once you start factoring in representation and the like, it's no longer a pure democracy. Perhaps it's a representative democracy or, if things are broken down into subdivisions based on such things as location, a democratic republic.
     
  4. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Messages:
    4,257
    Media:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] It's government by the masses...or by majority rule. And it is not currently practiced anywhere in the world.

    The United States and Germany are probably the two closest examples. The US is more of federalist democracy, with most representatives elected by majority vote, with a centralized government, and smaller governmental units (individual states).

    But for President and Vice President, we have the electoral college system. Here's how the Electoral College Works:

    The current workings of the Electoral College are the result of both design and experience. As it now operates:

    Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census).

    The political parties (or independent candidates) in each State submit to the State's chief election official a list of individuals pledged to their candidate for president and equal in number to the State's electoral vote. Usually, the major political parties select these individuals either in their State party conventions or through appointment by their State party leaders while third parties and independent candidates merely designate theirs.
    Members of Congress and employees of the federal government are prohibited from serving as an Elector in order to maintain the balance between the legislative and executive branches of the federal government.

    After their caucuses and primaries, the major parties nominate their candidates for president and vice president in their national conventions
    traditionally held in the summer preceding the election. (Third parties and independent candidates follow different procedures according to the individual State laws). The names of the duly nominated candidates are then officially submitted to each State's chief election official so that they might appear on the general election ballot.

    On the Tuesday following the first Monday of November in years divisible by four, the people in each State cast their ballots for the party slate of Electors representing their choice for president and vice president (although as a matter of practice, general election ballots normally say "Electors for" each set of candidates rather than list the individual Electors on each slate).

    Whichever party slate wins the most popular votes in the State becomes that State's Electors-so that, in effect, whichever presidential ticket gets the most popular votes in a State wins all the Electors of that State. [The two exceptions to this are Maine and Nebraska where two Electors are chosen by statewide popular vote and the remainder by the popular vote within each Congressional district].

    On the Monday following the second Wednesday of December (as established in federal law) each State's Electors meet in their respective State capitals and cast their electoral votes-one for president and one for vice president.

    In order to prevent Electors from voting only for "favorite sons" of their home State, at least one of their votes must be for a person from outside their State (though this is seldom a problem since the parties have consistently nominated presidential and vice presidential candidates from different States).

    The electoral votes are then sealed and transmitted from each State to the President of the Senate who, on the following January 6, opens and reads them before both houses of the Congress.

    The candidate for president with the most electoral votes, provided that it is an absolute majority (one over half of the total), is declared president. Similarly, the vice presidential candidate with the absolute majority of electoral votes is declared vice president.
    In the event no one obtains an absolute majority of electoral votes for president, the U.S. House of Representatives (as the chamber closest to the people) selects the president from among the top three contenders with each State casting only one vote and an absolute majority of the States being required to elect. Similarly, if no one obtains an absolute majority for vice president, then the U.S. Senate makes the selection from among the top two contenders for that office.

    At noon on January 20, the duly elected president and vice president are sworn into office. Occasionally questions arise about what would happen if the pesidential or vice presidential candidate died at some point in this process.For answers to these, as well as to a number of other "what if" questions, readers are advised to consult a small volume entitled After the People Vote: Steps in Choosing the President edited by Walter Berns and published in 1983 by the American Enterprise Institute. Similarly, further details on the history and current functioning of the Electoral College are available in the second edition of Congressional Quarterly's Guide to U.S. Elections, a real goldmine of information, maps, and statistics.
     
  5. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    @ Yago i thought that you would post as soon as you saw this thread but i did not expect that kind of answer ;)
    Yes that is the problem Democracy is a political system which allows every citizen who can vote to have a say about an issue he is familiar with. At least that was the principle of Democracy in ancient Athens
    I don't think so Athens was the one :D
    Now back to the topic in our days we have the possibility to establish one true Democracy at last and to promote the citizens from simple voters and experiment fields to true participants of the political system. How do you think about that how applicable can it be do you like this idea;
     
  6. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    At dmc, your short phrase is stretching my English capabilities at it's limit. :D

    It's semi-direct on the federal-scale. It depends on the canton and the community your in. All cantons are semi-direct, some are nearly direct. Bigger Communities tend to be semi-direct, smaller communities are direct. That is approval of the bill for the garbage removal. Ah, I love those heaty debates about the cost of garbage removal in the parks of Zürich-City. Always entertaining. ;)

    But I've heard rumours, that Iceland seems to have an impressive democratic culture and history, which even is older then ours. :eek: :eek: :eek:

    Athens ???? Athens ????? Never heard about Athens. :D

    Anyway, if I remember correctly, they had slaves and citizenship was withheld from a lot of people. :( Like we do it with foreigners today :eek:

    Adopt the Swiss-system ?

    But there is a backlash. If something goes wrong, you have no politican to slap, you only have yourself to slap, because you're the one who voted wrong. That is, if you were in the majority. If you were in the minority, you say:" told you so!". Then you go and vote again.

    Flattering my nationalist ego:

    Consider the Swiss
    By the way, "pride" is a stupid word in that context. I had notthing to do with selecting the place I was born. I just got very, very, very lucky.

    [ June 26, 2003, 12:56: Message edited by: Yago ]
     
  7. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes but the slaves had more privileges and better treatment than in any other part of their known world. And indeed the foreigners had no right to vote but they could gain citizenship if they could prove themselves worthy of it ;)
    But the democracy model of your country is rather close to the one i have in mind.
    But i would love to see a decentralized goverment where the city halls have extended authorities on everyday subjects and a parliament that engages only with the foreign, military, macroeconomical and education issues. That would help a lot of people to gain interest in the common affairs and make the people realize that cooperation is the key not self interest.
    The parliament members would be judged and not enjoy the law immunity they enjoy right now and IMHO they have misused it.
    How do you think of that please help me make the ideal goverment system :cool:
     
  8. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Education issues are the key-issues for city halls with extended authorities. A lot of political careers start because of education issue. It's one of the topics, which gets most people into political work. If it's about good eduction for the own children, most people are very attentive. My boss started this way in her school-community, now shes cantonal-parlimentarian.

    Parliamentary immunity is actually a dam good idea. It saves parliamentarians from being coverd with law-suits, which would petrify them, quite the reason for covering them with suits. The problem is not parliamentarian immunitiy, the abuse of it is syptom of another problem. Obvioöusly, like in Italy, people get away with it, because they cover eachother. The astonishing thing is, as soon problems arise, in Germany, France and Italy they seem to have the strange custom to say things like:"Hey, we are THE parte, you know THE party." And booms, all sins are paid. People seem to have developed a strange surreal party misconstructed concept of party-loality. "Yes, he's a liar and a cheat, but he's in OUR party, dam it !"
     
  9. Sadistic Butcher Gems: 17/31
    Latest gem: Star Diopside


    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    987
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, concerning the Electoral College, I think it really keeps third parties from ever having any power. This is a good and bad thing, good because it keeps America from leaning too far to the left or right.

    I think our two political parties are rather centrist in general, at least compared to the rest of the world. Statements like Republicans are racist war-mongers and Democrats are socialists/communists are both absurd.

    The bad thing is, if Republicans/Democrats never make any changes, it would be rather hard for a third party to emerge, unless the law is changed.

    Oh, and it keeps the President someone who was elected by a good percentage of Americans, but the % of people who vote in this country is really low. Bush was elected by only 24% of the population.

    As for the topic, I think the only place the world has true democracy is in small communities. Right now it's really unfeasible on a national scale. Although, Americans like to throw the word Democracy around a lot, as most of us learned in 5th grade, America is a representative republic!
     
  10. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    Lord Sarvok, with American standards I am sure you think that the two big US parties are in the centre, with American eyes. Just dont think they are that in international terms. Compared to the rest of the world the democratic party is to the right of most of the right wing parties in atleast European parliments.

    [ June 29, 2003, 01:56: Message edited by: joacqin ]
     
  11. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Now...a perfect democracy hath been created. But it depends too much on men, and men are easily corrupted and/or deceived. Communism is a near perfect idea. Work as much as you can, take what you NEED. But, of course, anybody that could took way more than he/she needed.
     
  12. Laches Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    Communism is hardly a perfect democracy. Whatever perfect means it has to include 'capable of working.' A communist nation can't work. It can't work not only because it runs counter to human nature.

    More importantly, it can't work because it is based on silly economic theory. The labor added theory of value is bunk - something is worth what someone else will pay, that's it, end of story. The entire concept of communism is built upon a crumbling foundation.

    Further, any centrally planned economy can't work. We don't have the capability to process the information necessary to make it work. Over the course of time, such a system will collapse under its own weight as it falls further and further behind in its calculations. Maybe long ago in the past where the number of goods was limited it might've worked, but when an airplane needs tens of thousands of parts each of which needs to be priced by a central authority... a collapse is inevitable.

    Now, someone may come along and say, that's economics yada, yada, yada... but read Marx, it is the foundation of communism.
     
  13. Sadistic Butcher Gems: 17/31
    Latest gem: Star Diopside


    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    987
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I meant centrist in the sense that we're not goose stepping down Wallstreet, or having a portrait of Georgy Bush in every household as a requirement(although some of the real right winger's already do that :D ).

    Some of the things Democrats are proposing like universal health care(or whatever other cheesy political phrase they want to call it) seem "socialist" to many Americans, but in truth 90% of other countries already have them in place. So yeah, you're right.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.