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Degrees of Cheesiness

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by War Nerve, Jul 23, 2004.

  1. Jesper898 Gems: 21/31
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  2. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    @ DedaJag/GodRules: There's a mod for people who want tougher battles and enemies that use the same dirty tricks as (some) players. Fighting fire with fire is perfectly acceptable in some circumstances - pumping a room where you know enemies will spawn full of Skull Traps is BS unless your character would already know that was going to happen.

    1) Importing items your character left BG1 with: 4 - although they're hardly the best items in the game, no-one in his right mind would leave a prisoner with easy access to their equipment. That said, it'd be good to have maybe one or two more of those items lying around in place of some of the stuff you find (for example, instead of the longsword +1 in the golem room, you might find the Flame Tongue sword).

    2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character": 3. A couple of re-rolls is fine - you're the child of a god - but trying until you get everything at 16+ is just stinky.

    3) The use of level cap removers: 1 if in a party of 5-6, 4 if soloing. You may be a godchild, but you're not a god.

    4) The use of Crom Faeyr: 1. Perfectly legitimate, although a bit smelly if used as an off-hand weapon just for the 25 STR.

    5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation: 1. In the game, no exploit involved. Fair.

    6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat: 2 against less intelligent enemies, 5 against anything with human intelligence. If you chug a potion or use a ring, 1 - that's another story, but they know you're back there if you're hiding in the shadows.

    7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks: 5. After a couple of seconds, anything would be swinging at whatever barrier was in place.

    8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks: 2.

    9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item: 5. I've already said my piece about the Ring Of The Ram, and here is not the place to repeat it. Suffice it to say that I think that is the only time that it's not pure cheese.

    10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items: With the exception of Vhailor's Helm and Shield of Balduran, 1. Including them, 3.

    Can I add "Time Stop + Shape Change" to this list? I know they're both in the game (although only with scrolls), but the Mindflayer change is ludicrously overpowered and becomes pure abuse of the game engine with Time Stop to score auto-hits.
     
  3. Capt Massacre Gems: 5/31
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    @Sparhawk - Because of a bug, Melf's Minute Meteors bypass MR. Not bad for a level 3 spell.
     
  4. Sparhawk the Pandion Gems: 14/31
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    How is that a bug? MR doesn't help against summons or created weapons, does it?

    Edit: OK, I read the spell description again and it seems you create small globes of fire that you throw. However would you expect MR to prevent you being hit by the Spiritual Hammer or the Shillelagh?
     
  5. Menion Leah Gems: 9/31
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    I believe I heard of a bug once where Melf's Minute Meteors would strike with the effects of the off-hand weapon. That meant that these meteors could stun a target if you were wielding the Celestial Fury for instance. That's not right.

    1) Importing items your character left BG1 with
    2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character"
    3) The use of level cap removers
    4) The use of Crom Faeyr
    5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation
    6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat
    7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks
    8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks
    9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item
    10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items

    1) 2. I think it would be realistic for Irenicus to capture you AND your equipment. How stupid would he be if he threw it away? Surely he would take it with him. And since this is where he took you, it's probably where he took your equipment. There should be some kind of treasury, preferably at the end of the dungeon. But since there isn't, I think it would be okay to 'import' your items at the end of the dungeon, but not at the beginning.
    2) 2. Not cheesy, but also not totally legitimate, because rerolling your characteristics isn't really realistic. I do it all the time though.
    3) 3. Realistically, there is no reason there should be an experience cap, so if you look at it that way, I'd say it isn't cheesy. But since it unbalances the computer game, it gets a 3.
    4) 1. Nothing at all wrong with it. Not even if you equip it on the off-hand of a low strength character. I mean, why not? It's my weapon, my party's smart and uses it in the best way they can think of.
    5) 2. I guess they're legit, but I really hate them. They can automatically win some very tough fights for you and I'm inclined to feel that you might as well ctrl+y Kangaxx (for instance).
    6) 4. If repeated once, it's okay. You backstab, run away and stand behind the corner, the enemy comes after you and you hit him again. If the enemy doesn't come after you, it's stupid, because Hide in shadows should not grant total invisibility and the enemy should be alarmed and alert.
    7) 5. That's really stupid. What do you think would happen if a monster runs into an invisible character at full speed (because he thinks there's no barrier). You'd think the chracter would move. And even if he wouldn't, everyone that's stopped by an 'invisible force' and is getting shot, would strike at what is in front of him...
    8) 2. You can use your summons whenever you like. As someone said before: "why shouldn't my druid summon a fire elemental?" I do think however, that the enemy should either switch weapons, but since that's usually not possible, or switch opponents.
    9) 5. Might as well use SK or CLUAconsole.
    10) 2. Overpowered items, but otherwise totally legit.

    Legit though overpowered. It's just being smart. It is logical that a character who can't move, can't dodge any blows. Therefor you hit all the time and well, the mind flayer just has a very deadly attack.
     
  6. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    What about against something with either no brain to drain (such as Kangaxx or some other undead) or a critter you couldn't reach the face of to make such an attack (such as a dragon)? Illithids are meant to be physically weak and disdainful of any form of melee combat - it is unnecessary for them, they just stun you and suck your brains out. The auto-hit in Time Stop makes sense, I just think it's abusive in conjunction with a stat drain that circumvents every protection and kills anything, which would be hard to apply in certain situations. Thankfully, there are enemies you can't do it to (well, not without stuffing up your game).

    It's worse in ToB, but that's not for this forum.
     
  7. Bahir the Red Gems: 18/31
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    I dont concider any of those cheesy. If its in the game, its legit. Just like fake-talking...
     
  8. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    Must... remain calm... pressure... unbearable...

    :rolleyes:
     
  9. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    There is a concept known as "abusing the game".
    Games are not perfect. There are many reasons for this, but the primary is probably that the game designers don't have infinite time on their hands.

    Only some newbies and those few who search endlessly for new ways to cheese - like Xyx for example - will abuse these flaws and think they have done a good thing.
    The difference between these groups is that the cheese hunters are working to find new flaws. They are really doing a service to the community.
    That other group actually think they are playing the game the way it was meant to be played and may even think they have the game beat by killing dragons using a fake talk strategy.

    It's good to know who those people are so that we can take their advice regarding the game for what it is.
     
  10. david w Gems: 19/31
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    Fake-talking is *not* cheesy? Did I hear that right? "It's not cheesy because it's in the game." Hmmm...

    You might as well argue that activating the cheat keys and then doing CTRL-Y on all the enemies isn't cheesy because they're in the game.
     
  11. Menion Leah Gems: 9/31
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    I agree that you shouldn't be able to pull off this trick against certain brainless enemies or whatever enemies you describe. I still think it's a legitimate tactic against humanoids though. You're basically doing the same to them as the mind flayers are doing to you (well, without the save against their stun spell, but hey, they're mind flayers and we're a godchild).
     
  12. Bahir the Red Gems: 18/31
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    Dont think Im some über-cheeser who cant play without cheats. Ive finished the game NOUMERUS times WITHOUT cheating, but I find it fun trying alternative techniques, like fake talking, or casting Larochs Minor Drain on yourself (found that out once in BG1 when I were trying to make Xar kill himself (couldnt stand him)
     
  13. david w Gems: 19/31
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    I don't think anyone was calling you an uber-cheeser (I certainly wasn't anyway) but using a known flaw in the game system as a legitimate tactic and then claiming it's not cheesy is... well, kinda cheesy.
     
  14. nataben1314 Gems: 10/31
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    If the game were realistic in any way all spells like time stop, stun, hold person, etc. would be instantly fatal at least to humanoids. Imagine, even if you are a weak little gibberling you should be able to walk up to a held creature, pull out a dagger or pocket knife or anything else, take off their helmet, and slit their throat and/or cut off their head.


    This game is by no means realistic in any way, so I don't think it's logical to think of it that way. All you can do is prevent yourself from doing things that make the game too easy, since those things would make the game not fun.
     
  15. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    No argument there - against a vaguely humanoid enemy, even a large one like an Umber Hulk Elder or a *different* one like an Ulitharid, it's completely chicken soup. I just think that when it becomes a case of the game engine telling physics and common sense to go jump (such as when a 20-ft tentacle would be needed to reach the face of the enemy in question, or against a demon/undead without a definable brain to be devoured) that it becomes an exploit rather than a legitimate tactic.

    @ nataben1314: In all the Gold Box games, you could do exactly that to a Held target, which made clerics and high-level paladins absolutely god-like. Tactics like this are meant to be kept in reserve rather than abused, and I agree about the "not fun" bit - where's the challenge if you have a "Instant Infallible Immediate Death" attack?
     
  16. nataben1314 Gems: 10/31
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    What kindof bites is that there are so many things which make the game *easy*.

    Certain weapons, certain spells, soloing, most HLA's, certain items all make the game incredibly easy.

    Right now I'm playing a kensai, keldorn, valygar, cernd, yoshimo, and aerie. I havn't used any cheats or anything, and they have such substantial melee power that I find aerie or cernd rarely cast any spells. I win nearly every battle in the game simply by having aerie cast haste, cernd shapeshift to a greater werewolf, and having everyone just attack.

    It bites because rarely do I have to use actual tactics to win a battle! I'm thinking next time I'll go with a 4 character evil party on a high difficulty and see if that is more challenging.
     
  17. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    Try the four player party first. If that's no fun, then install the Tactics mod and whatever elements you'd like to try. I know, I don't shut up about it, but it's an awesome mod for anybody who feels the game is getting too easy. Actually having to work and fight tooth-and-nail to get past Firkraag or Kangaxx makes it so much more satisfying.
     
  18. nataben1314 Gems: 10/31
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    I am always hesitant to install mods because I feel as though they weren't "meant" for the game. I like the notion of beating the game as it was meant to be played, if that makes any sense. Sure, I could probably use some mod to add 100 hit points to every creature, but I would still feel as if I was cheating, which doesn't make much sense since I would be making it harder on myself.

    Using mods is for me like playing a different game.
     
  19. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, I guess that attitude makes sense if you view a game a being so sacred that making any changes via mods would be tantamount to sacrilege.

    Personally, I look at games as being about having fun. So if a mod helps in that regard, all the better.

    But I think I'm getting way off-topic here.
     
  20. Takara

    Takara My goodness! I see turnips everywhere

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    Mods can add extra cheddar on to a game, like producing the (improved) shield of Balduran, which I shamefully use. :mommy:

    Even so, I've played normal BG2 so many times. After the 15th time you want a bit of variation in your game. Mods add that extra bit of something you havent seen before. Many you wont like, but some will add extra joy to the game.
     
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