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Bush's Ultimatum: War Begins on 3/19/03?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Mathetais, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Arabwel

    Arabwel Screaming towards Apotheosis Veteran

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    To quote someone we all know... "This is madness!"

    I wished this would not come to this, for many reasons I have stated earlier, so I will just say that I hope that the loss of life will be minimal and this will be over as quickly as possible...

    And may whatever all involved believe in be with them. They NEED it.

    (Wishing she believed in something...)
     
  2. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    We all knew this day would come. I just hope that the number of deaths is kept down. If Saddam truly cared about his people he would leave -- right or wrong, he would be saving lives, and I would respect him for that, if for nothing else.

    Hostilities had better not commence on the 19th -- that's the anniversary of my mothers death, and I'd like to remember that with nothing else to distract me.
     
  3. Register Gems: 29/31
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    [​IMG] What happens IF Iraq have the nuke? I don't think so but IF. Then he can just launch a couple of them if he finds out that he wont be able to escape and millions of civilians will die.
    So I say, stop the war. Don't kill more millions of civilians.

    And USA can attack every country that they say is bad but if Iraq, China or any other "evil" country does this they are terrorists. Idiotical.

    I also have this ideá of how USA will do to the oil after the war.
    They will barricade the Iraqian oil-wells and say; "No more pumping here, boy!" Then the oilprices will go sky-high and they will be happy becouse they have the Texas-oil. And when the Texas-oil is out, they will re-open the oil-wells in Iraq and say; "No more pumping here for anyone else than americans, boy!"

    "Join the dark side, join the american army."
     
  4. Mathetais Gems: 28/31
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    Ivanj ... I'm sorry but that is just plain crazy. If oil prices go sky-high after this war, Bush will get voted out of office. America already has record high gas prices, and the blue-coller guys who drive all day are hurting...big time. If they go higher and stay high because of this, Bush and his administration will be out of a job.

    The only country dependant on Iraqi oil is France. America has plenty in Texas and (undrilled) in Alaska. Plus we have partnerships with Russia ...

    This war isn't about oil.
    Its about human rights and national security.

    -------------
    If on Sept. 10th Bush had gotten up and said we needed to attack Afganistan to thousands of Americans would die ... who would have believed him. Yet, after Sept 11th, all the anti-bush nuts were asking "where was your intelligence?" "how come you didn't connect the dots?"

    He has now connected the dots and is being proactive. How can we not support that?
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG]
    It doesn't accomplish anything, but putting that in Bush's speech is a monumentally stupid thing to do nonetheless. Most of Iraq already thinks that USA is their sworn enemy bent on destroying them (through Saddam's propaganda) and that USA wants to attack Iraq to get their oil. Which part of the speech do you think the people of Iraq will hear? Definitely this bit, only filtered and processed with enough comment to make it sound to them that, indeed, all USA cares for in Iraq is their oil. So Bush didn't do anyone in Iraq a favour by saying that, he just gave Saddam excellent propaganda material.
     
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Perhaps that's true, but they (the speech writers etc.) must feel there is value in warning the Iraqis not to do certain specific things.

    I think it's not a bad idea to remind the Iraqis that they would be destroying their own wealth this time, and not somebody else's (like when they fired the Kuwaiti oil fields)...
     
  7. aegron Gems: 8/31
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    Ok let me state thi once more: Hussein has got to go! He murders millions of people. But this isn't the way to do it. Now the government will be chosen by outside force and that does not work! Besides: why Irak? Why not North-Korea, Iran, or China, or Russia for that matter? Why not any western country which indirectly kills milions of African people, because we want cheap food?

    Also darkwolf, ever heard of argument ad hominem? Because I think this way about Bush and because I am rather sarcastic doesn't mean the other arguments are less valid! And I don't think it juvenile to state that America has too much weapons. What would happen if an inspection team like the one in Irak would inspect all military bases in the US?

    Sorry No flaming intended but it is rather frustrating to be accused of being juvenile. (being 21 at last and all ;) )
     
  8. Sir Dargorn Gems: 21/31
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    The whole things disgusts me.

    I feel desperatley ashamed to be living under the dictatorship democracy of Blair and Bush. It sickens me when i think that i must share my world with such a selfish, arogant, sickeningly stupid man such as the President of the United states.

    Let me state here that I niether support nor agree with the action that is being taken and I pray that some action will be taken to remove these terrible excuses for politicians from their thrones.

    Welcome to a new Era in History my fellow powerless masses.


    Hail Bush. Mein Fuhrer!
     
  9. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
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    Let me pre-empt the fiery reaction I'd otherwise get by saying that yes, I recognize that Saddam hasn't complied with the UN resolutions for the past 12 years.

    That said, I'm not convinced that the "dots," once connected, REALLY spelled I-R-A-Q. The transition from "let's get Al-Qaida" to "let's get Saddam" was so abrupt that I have to wonder who's secret agenda is driving this thing. I can't see that Saddam has aspirations outside of the Middle East that truly threaten the American way of life.

    But now that it's started, may this war be short. My other concern is that, unless everything goes exactly right (and that's a terribly slim probability), this war will drive the American economy further into the doldrums. The last thing we need now is for our eroding world perception to be reflected in the value of the dollar.
     
  10. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    aegron - Why Iraq? Many reasons of which I'm sure you're aware. You seem to be implying with your question of "why not these other states" that you believe the main reason is human rights violations. So in your opinion, if you cannot deal with all human right violators you believe that none should be dealt with? Leaving aside Saddam is one of the worst, that is...

    Sir Dargorn - You seem to think that Bush runs the US, when in fact the US Congress has given him permission to wage this war. You also seem to think that it is only the US and the UK that believe this war is the right thing to do. In fact the war is supported by many countries; more in fact than the mere 15 states that comprise the Security Council.

    Rallymama - You state that you recognize something in your first paragraph, yet show otherwise in your next. There was no sudden transition to "getting" Saddam. There has been pressure and sanctions for 12 years to get him to comply. Apparently, 12 years of other methods with lacking results is long enough. Also, what makes you think the US is no longer after Al-Qaida?

    There have been 12 years of sanctions, persuasion, and containment since resolution 687 called for the cease fire of the Gulf War. The effort has failed; it's time for more serious measures.
     
  11. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
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    @BTA: Yes, Saddam has been defying the world for 12 years - so what happened that deposing him became so incredibly urgent? What real threat does he pose that President Bush is willing to risk America's political and economic standing in the world to oust him?

    As may not always be apparent on The Alley, I'm willing to be shown why I'm wrong. :) It just might take a lot of convincing! ;)
     
  12. Register Gems: 29/31
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    [​IMG] @Mathetias - I ment that only the americans would get the oil cheeply but all the other countries will have to pay sky-high prices for not freezing their arses of. That what was I ment.
     
  13. Zorith Gems: 3/31
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    [​IMG] OK, after reading this post, I am totally disgusted at you people who are against Bush. Do you people not friggen realize that he is doing this for the safety of the WHOLE! world and not for his own agenda.
    If you don't like what is going on nobody is telling you to stay in the country, and nobody is telling you at the next election you can't vote for someone else.
    I guarantee that if you mother, father, brother, or sister was over there you would be behind them 100 percent.
    It has been proven in the past that Saddam has funded terrorist attacks, and I bet that if one of those attacks were in your country, you would be pretty pissed too.
    Well, I am done ranting and I am going to get back to work at my government job and supporting our military and supporting our president.
    USA BABY!!!!!!! :grin:
     
  14. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    BTA, your allie, SA, is worse

    @Zorith
    My grandfather used to fight in Indonesia, he was part of a notorious battalion responsible for Genocide, I didn´t support his actions.
    And he is still sorry for those actions.

    What makes you think that if family fought in Iraq I would support them, because they are forced and walk around with misplaced morals in their heads??
    Hell no

    [ March 19, 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Morgoth ]
     
  15. Zorith Gems: 3/31
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    @Morgoth
    You are truly clueless, please do us all a favor and leave the country!
    What kind of person are you that you do not support your own family?
    Besides you are only 18 years old and you have not lived long enough to have a clue on what the real world is about anyway.
     
  16. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You are funny Zorith. It always both amuses me and scares me to see that there are still so many people that are totally blinded by emotional propaganda. No matter your stance on the current crisis it would do you good to open up your eyes and try to think atleast for a second. Otherwise you might sometime in the future end up like the people of Iraq or the people of Germany during the 30s. Always think and ponder, do no never just accept what is told to you.
     
  17. Morgoth

    Morgoth La lune ne garde aucune rancune Veteran

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    Oh great wonderous American, please enlighten us with your wisdom and tell us what the real world is about.

    I will support my family when it leads to something rational, I didn´t support my grandfathers actions, but I still respect him.
     
  18. aegron Gems: 8/31
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    Whoah Morgoth! we agree on something! :) Perhaps it is us being weird dutchies or something! ;)

    To answer BTA's question. Of course Irak needs attention. But that does not make a war justified! At least not in this way. Let's listen to stories from Iraki's themselves. Yes as matter of fact I did speak with some of these people. And yes they do want Hussein to leave. But 12 years ago there was a group of rebels who wanted to overthrow saddam Hussein. And what did the USA do? Nothing but PROMISING help. When this revolt started the usa wasn't there and these people were killed or transported to camps. The people the USA is now sponsoring the overthrow SH where his generals in the last war. That made ME think!

    A revolt can only come from inside a country (be it with help) Not through a war from outside the country made upon the country by another country!

    :)
     
  19. Eze Gems: 24/31
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    Zorith, learn to think a bit.

    Eze is reminded of a certain Cyprean stonehead

    They need to get rid of Saddam. I don't support the war as well, but if it's the only chance, they should do it.
     
  20. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    While I am not a oderator, I will use this first sentence to remind everyone that it is always better to avoid to personal attacks -- the argument is so much more interesting and valid if we stick to the issue.

    Ahem, having said that, I will also state that just because someone disagrees either way on an issue, it does not necessarily mean they are propagandized, or that they haven't thought an issue through. I fully believe that this war is necessary (my opinion has been stated in myriad other threads) but I also know of the costs, like the huge loss of life, the possibility that the replacements for Hussein's regime could be even worse, the terrorist possibility all over the world, etc. It boils down to a) values prioritation and b) what data you believe.

    Saddam asserted for the longest time that he had no missiles at all. Now, they are trumpeting the fact that they are destroying these missiles, the missiles they swore they didn't have. Hmm. I wonder what else he has up his sleeve? He's lost the trust of everyone in the International community, even the ones who oppose war.
     
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