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Bioware's Cleric Bias

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by drowling, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    [​IMG] Has anyone noticed how IE games (and the BG saga in particular) are biased towards clerics or fighter clerics? Let me explain: if your character has started BG1 with 18 Wis, they would be able to have 24 Wis (a +6 increase) by the end of Shadows of Amn. No other ability gets such an increase, and you only get serious Str/Con bonuses if you're evil. This immediately suggests that the protagonist should be a Cleric or a Fighter/Cleric if you're soloing (I play BG1 with a Fighter, then in SoA, when the time comes, I dual!).

    I'm sure some of you have noticed the Cleric bias in other IE games such as IWD2 (a ring that gives +5 Wis seems somewhat unbalanced to me). I personally don't have any explanation of this... do you?
     
  2. Duke Eltan Gems: 14/31
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    In BG I´d have to agree.
    2 tomes of Wis in BG1 seems weird. Why not 2 tomes of Con?
    That would be of a greater benefit for all.

    But in IWD2 there are boots that give +5 dex. And I´m sure there are other items that gives +5 in another stat aswell. So I dont think clerics are favored there.
     
  3. Xindell Gems: 6/31
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    Bioware does seem to favor characters who use Wisdom in the BG games. I would agree that a ring isn't as big of a deal. There are items that raise other stats as much in IWDII, and if it's not a permanent raise, I don't consider it quite as big of a deal as the way it is done in the BG series. However, there are several potions in IWDII that permanently raise a stat at the cost of a different one. However, the ONLY potion that raises a stat by 2 but only lowers another one by 1 (thereby making it the only one worth a damn) raises Wisdom, so there is a bit of bias there too!
     
  4. CamDawg

    CamDawg The gaze of the Wolf reaches into our soul Veteran

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    And there is a third Wisdom tome in Durlag's Tower for BG.

    I'm just irritated that the default Bioware romances are all priests of some type--OK, Jaheira's a druid, but close enough.
     
  5. arlecchino Gems: 1/31
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    I can see where that assumtion could be made, but I think that its reading more into it than whats there. I think it has more to do with not evenly distributing magic, and not planning out as opposed to a "bias" one way or the other. Think about it, with BG1 they were still learning the process of what makes a good RPG. Think of all those annoying 'FED EX' missions that peppered BG1. By the time they hit the expansion pack they included less of those. They were learning. BG2 had even fewer 'FED EX' quests.
    Sadly in CRPG's playing a fighter class has always been easyer (esp. at lower levels) than a Wizard. Playing a fighter/cleric is a great way to have both worlds. You get the hitting power of a fighter, with the more stratgic game play that comes with playing a magic user. Thats more of a fault of CRPG's than of Bioware (BTW I think you can play a Wizard effectively, but you just have to play smarter in the lower levels before you become a hard hitting power house of magic)
    I think that if the story lines foucused around clerics or gave big bonuses to clerics then I'd buy into your theory. For now I think it has more to do with uneven placement and creation of magic items.
     
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I'd like to add that mages are SUPPOSED to be a more difficult class to play at low levels. This is made up for at higher levels in that they can become extremely powerful. Fighters, on the other hand, are extremely powerful at low levels, but turn into little more than meat shields at the high levels, especially against the top opponents. For example, while my fighters will engage dragons in melee, it's usually my spellcasters that bring the beast down.

    As far as the cleric bias is concerned, it's all relative to what level you are. Really, there isn't a big difference between a cleric with a wisdom of 15 versus a cleric with a wisdom of 20 at higher levels. Sure, the cleric with a wisdom of 20 gets more bonus spells, but most of the bonuses are for low-level spells, and at higher levels you have so many low level spells that there isn't a big difference.
     
  7. Harkle Gems: 16/31
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    And remember that +5 dex in IWD2 isn't so good as in BG: because a) you get that item very late in game b) +5 to stat isn't so much in 3rd edition, but in AD&D 2nd edition it is.

    By the way, there aren't good *good* single-class clerics in BGs. In BG, Branwen is neutral and Viconia evil. In BG2, Anomen is neutral, and he can become good, but many people consider him so irritating that won't have him in party, and again, Viconia is evil. I didn't count multiclass clerics here, because they aren't very strong clerics at all.

    So, here's another reason why to pick cleric protagonist.
     
  8. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    Just in case you're wondering where the +6 comes from, let me summarize:

    +3 at the end of BG1, increased by books found in Candlekeep Catacombs, Durlag's Tower and 'appropriated' from Umberlee clerics in Baldur's Gate
    +1 granted by getting Star in the Deck of Many Things, acquired in Watcher's Keep (to get Star takes on average about 200 reloadings... be patient)
    +1 granted by the Mad Mage's (is his name Carston or something?) machine... actually, you aren't forced to take Wisdom here, and I guess it might make sense to take something else (Str or Con), considering how oversaturated with Wisdom your cleric already is
    +1 granted by a tear at the end of BG2 (together with +1 Cha), provided you choose Good options

    Curiously, I think (though I haven't tried it) that it might be possible to get +2 Con in addition to the +1 Wis/+1 Cha if you turn evil... kinda like a 'traitor choice'... but then, are you sure you want to have an evil character in ToB?
     
  9. JSBB Gems: 31/31
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    You can give as many of the six stat boosts as you want to any of your characters. Unless you have someone else that can use the extra wisdom in your party I don't see why you wouldn't give it to your cleric.
     
  10. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    Really? I thought you just get a single +1 increase... (as you may have guessed, I never got to this point yet). Well if that's the case, then the cumulative increase at the end of SoA (if you're putting everything into the protagonist) is

    +2/+2/+2/+2/+6/+3

    Hehe, more reason to have a Fighter/Cleric... the +2 Con and +3 Cha will come handy for survival and turning undead, respectively. As for strength, I'm not so sure, I might actually give it to someone else, because I have Crom Fayer in the off hand.
     
  11. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    What about the girldles of hill/stone/frost giant strenght? You can create a fighter with 9 strenght and thus get a +12 increase in your main stat with only one item. There are items which boosts strenght, there are none for wisdom. There is one for dexterity, however, there are not much chance to raise your int at all. No items and is there one tomb in BG1? I would say that there is a general fighter and cleric bias if anything when it comes to stats.
     
  12. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    There is at least one tome for each ability in BG1, and if your protagonist is interested in Strength, then rolling for ages just to get 18/00 is completely pointless, because next you find the tome and you're Str 19! On the other hand, in BG2, the strength-boosting items mean that when originally rolling up protagonist stats you might want to give Strength a miss. Crom Fayer is Str 25 and there's a sword Str 22 as well, not to mention the girdles.

    But the 'low Str' approach spells out trouble if you're planning to play Human Fighter/Cleric, because a low-Str fighter has only his/her dexterity to go on, automatically becoming somewhat of a ranged weapons expert. Also, low Str is not practical for soloing, since you cannot carry much.

    Here's something else that's curious: none of the NPCs in either BG game has Cha 18, which means that your protagonist is the only one who can attempt to get 'super low prices' by wearing Algernon's Cloak. Paladins come close with their Cha 17, but the difference is significant. Plus, the protagonist gets to improve charisma later.

    The 'wisdom shortage' comes also from the fact that you can get bonuses in any score except wisdom and charisma (half-orcs get str, elves get dex, dwarves get con and gnomes get int). This spells out one thing for me: take a cleric, since then the protagonist can excel in an area where s/he has no real advantage.
     
  13. RangerFox Gems: 4/31
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    It all balances out, when you consider that there are mage spells that increase other stats like strength (Strength) and charisma (Friends). Friends makes it quite easy for anyone with 16-17 charisma to get excellent prices in shops. Intelligence and wisdom beyond 18 makes little difference anyway, and it's not that hard to get 18+ dexterity for anyone.
     
  14. Klorox

    Klorox Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! Veteran

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    Except Keldorn.
     
  15. Sterntiger Gems: 1/31
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    Any cleric can get an effective charisma of 21.


    Spoilers included
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    Use the ring of human influence for charisma of 18(found in circus tent), sensate amulet (charisma +2) (purchased from the bonus merchant in the adventure's mart), and the nymph cloak (charisma +1, purchased from the thieves guild)

    So any party with a cleric can get the super charisma fairly simply.
     
  16. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    [​IMG] Okay, I stand corrected. But then, the protagonist can get, hmm, charisma 22-24 throughout SoA, right? By the way, are there any Wisdom-boosting items in BG2?
     
  17. Shrikant

    Shrikant Swords! Not words! Veteran

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    Correct me if I get something wrong here.
    Assume you Ctrl-8'ed for BG and started with 18/00-18-18-18-18-18.

    At the end of BG & TotSC the PC (any PC or just Cleric PC?) has: 19-19-19-21-19-19
    I dont have BG so I dont know about what items there do for you.

    At the end of SoA it's 19-19-19-21-19-20 (you gave 1 pt of wisdom in your dream and are a good guy)
    Items only modify your strength or charisma (What do you want with Gauntlets of Dexterity when you already are at 19Dex?)

    So you may end SoA with items (and without regard to offensive/defensive capabilities here) 25-19-19-21-19-25
    25 Str from CromFayer
    25 Char from:
    +2 Nymph's Cloak
    +2 Sensate Amulet/Blade of Roses
    +1 Helm of Glory
    +1 Boots of West

    COOL! :thumb:
     
  18. Klorox

    Klorox Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai-mênu! Veteran

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    I don't think that Ctrl-8 thing works with BG1

    Originally posted by Sterntiger:
    Make that a 23 Charisma:

    Ring of Human Influence (18)
    Sensate Amulet (+2)
    Nymph Cloak (+2)
    Plate of Balduran (+1)

    [ August 15, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Klorox ]
     
  19. drowling Gems: 4/31
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    [​IMG]
    It's actually 19-19-19-19-21-19, but I see what you mean.
    Actually, I would give up Intelligence, and as a Good guy I get +1 Wis +1 Cha. If you play Watcher's Keep before ToB, you'd get additional +1/+1/+1/+1/+2/+1 to add to that (provided you're a cleric). So then your stats would be 20-20-20-19-24-21.

    Your items give you Str 25 and +6 Cha, so your final stats are 25-20-20-19-24-27. Hmm, I'm not sure if a Child of Bhaal (a supposedly :evil: scary :evil: figure that can even turn into a Slayer) is supposed to have Cha 27.

    I'm not sure Ctrl-8 works... what I would do is roll up 9-18-18-10-18-18 in BG1, and then rush to pick up a Str-enhancing girdle. You end up keeping Int 10 for the whole game, and your Str rating gets a major boost by Crom Fayer in your off-hand. (As a fighter/cleric, you simply take Flail of Ages + Crom Fayer, wait until ***** in Flails/*** in Two-Weapon Style, and you're all set.)
     
  20. Xerxes Gems: 3/31
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    Sorry that this is a little off topic but i have never found a tome for ALL of the stats in bg1. could someone please give me a list of where to ffind them?
     
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