1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

"Big Brother Nixes Happy Hour"

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Amatorius, Aug 4, 2005.

  1. Amatorius Gems: 3/31
    Latest gem: Lynx Eye


    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] I was trolling slashdot ( :grin: I am such a nerd :roll: ) and came across this... gem.

    Gah. :nolike: What next, I ask you? Should workers all be placed in soundproof boxes to continue their tasks uninterrupted? To what end?

    Granted there is some basis for something similar, maybe a policy of no dating nor intimate relations interfering with workplace protocols, but not on this scale surely?

    Comments anyone?
     
  2. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    This is gonna be a very fertile basis for a couple of slapstick lawsuits, mark my words.
     
  3. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Messages:
    5,423
    Likes Received:
    30
    It's also grounds to fire anyone you want if other companies follow suit...
     
  4. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8,252
    Media:
    82
    Likes Received:
    238
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, this proves that unions still have a vialbe place in American society. The American worker still needs all the protection he/she can get.
     
  5. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Keep in mind that this is not actually a ban on these activities. It only allows employers to enact such a ban within their own companies. Any employer that is stupid enough to do so will most likely have to watch his company promptly fold due to lack of employees. :heh:
     
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,366
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    The best protection a worker can have is to be good at what he/she does so that he/she has no problem finding gainful employment someplace where the terms are more to their liking. Nobody is forced to work for any company; if you don't like your employer's policies take your talents and abilities to their competitor.

    Felinoid: :wave:
     
  7. BOC

    BOC Let the wild run free Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    14
    Not exactly. This may be true when the worker is in his/her twenties or thirties but it doesn't happen when he/she is forty years old or older.How many companies are willing to hire someone in his/her fifties, who will cost them far more than a younger one?
     
  8. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,366
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    The pay of a worker should be commensurate with the job they are performing.

    If a younger person can do the job of the older one who has more experience, then the older one should be given the choice of taking a pay cut or be replaced.

    If the company this older person is working for is willing to keep paying him more than the job he is performing is worth, then that is a policy that older worker can get behind right? Maybe that outweighs some other annoying policies that the worker doesn't like. Still, it is his choice to stay or go.
     
  9. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    45
    Thinking that the skill of a worker is his best protection is being a bit naive. Most people who get fired these days don't get fired because they don't do their work properly, they get fired because the corporation is reorganizing itself or making cuts which means closing down factories or offices. Skill may help finding a new job but it's clear that everyone can't be on the top of their branch and these people definently need protection.

    Personally I'm not very fond of the union culture which we have in Finland ( more than80% percent of all workforce is a member in an labour union), because quite frankly it gives the unions too much political power and makes it possible for them to put the economical growth to a halt if they're dissatisfied (we had a major labourtwist in the paper industry earlier this summer which caused a significant reduction in the national economy). More often than not the unions are only protecting their own intrests more than the intrests of their members.

    I personally want security from my emploier. I don't want to work somewhere where the corporation can kick me out any day they want without being forced to compensate anything for me. In Finland we have decent work protection laws though and therefore I find the unions to be just an unconvenience which might cause problems for Finland in the future. I would not ban the unions though, they might be necessary for some branches but I would like them to change their policies and make the penalty for illegal strikes significantly higher than it is now.
     
  10. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,366
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    We weren't talking about getting fired, we were talking about companies implementing unpopular policies.

    Then go to work for a company that gives that to you. I would expect your pay to be less than at a competing company that doesn't give you this security because such security comes at a cost to the company.

    If you can't find a company with such a policy, then obviously the competition for employees has shown that such a policy is not cost-competitive.

    What any employee wants from a company is different from person to person. You want security, and so your salary may be of secondary concern to this. Someone else may not care about security or any other benefits, but wants the highest salary they can get.

    Companies are competing with each other for employees, so they are going to offer the compensation package (which includes such intangibles as job security) that will attract the number of employees they need.

    [ August 05, 2005, 19:20: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]
     
  11. BOC

    BOC Let the wild run free Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    14
    @BTA

    You've missed my point, perhaps because he have different systems. I don't know how things work in US but here the law states that a worker, who has children, must get benefits for these children and these benefits are paid by the employer. If the worker is a mother the law provides her with other accomodotions such as less working hours in order to take care of her children. Also, the insurance that the employer has to pay for the employee depends, among others, on how many years he is working. So what I'm trying to say is that a company will not hire a 50 year old because it has to spend more money for him and not because he cannot have the same job perfomance with a 25 year old.

    Taking a pay cut just because the company has found someone who will do the job for less money, it's pure blackmail.
     
  12. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,366
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    Ah, I see. Yeah, as far as I know that's different.

    I competely disagree, unless you call it blackmail for an employee to shop around at other companies for a better deal and to tell their current employer that they'll join the other company if they won't match the compensation package.

    Why should I as a company have to pay more for the same work? Obviously there's some measure of risk to hire an unkown to replace a known person, especially if the person has been doing excellent work and has gained a lot of experience at my company. Also, if I do this often and get the reputation that I have no loyalty to my workforce, I may have a difficult time getting people willing to work for me.

    All that (and more I'm sure) has to be taken into account as the cost of replacing a current employee with another. But if the cost is lower, why should I have to pay the higher cost? I will be at a competitive disadvantage with any competitor who is hiring these other people that cost less.
     
  13. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8,252
    Media:
    82
    Likes Received:
    238
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry, even the rank-and-file employee has a stake in how a company is run, and its policy and principles. But that aside, and you and I have argued this is the past, BTA, if a company makes its living in a democratic society, then it should be held to the same standards as any other institution in that society. It is not above the democratic principles that the rest of its citizens live under.

    [ August 06, 2005, 07:22: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
  14. BOC

    BOC Let the wild run free Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    14
    Because it's immoral and offensive to fire someone who has worked for your company for 20 years without causing problems and without having any complaints about the quality of his work. You don't pay him just for his productivity, you pay him for all the years he has invested in your company. A pay cut proposal could be acceptable if the company faces economic problems, which threaten its survival, but when the pay cut is just aiming to increase the profits of the company (and AFAIK this is the reason in the most cases), it cannot be accepted. Why must the employee lower his standards of living because the owners of the company want to earn more money?

    All these brought in my mind something I saw in the news few months ago. A factory in France has closed and moved to Romania. The onwer of the factory have fired all the french workers and proposed to hire them again under the conditions to move in Romania and to accept romanian salaries (the salary of a worker in France is about 1200 euros, in Romania 300 euros). If you were in their position how would you feel?
     
  15. Rastor Gems: 30/31
    Latest gem: King's Tears


    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,533
    Likes Received:
    0
    A worker would be wise to consider other factors than just raw money. I can best illustrate this with a hypothetical example: I am a worker in New York making $120,000 a year. My employer decides to transfer to Arkansas and allows me to come with them if I take a pay cut to $30,000. Given that situation, I would probably take the pay cut and move. Why? Because I could have a much better quality of life with $30k in Arkansas than I can with $120k in New York.

    You also need to examine things from the company's perspective. Are French workers really four times as productive as Romanian workers? I doubt it. Hence, the company made the right choice in moving. If the workers' skills are really so commonplace that the company can find tons of people to do the same job for less money, the worker should consider getting new skills or take the pay cut.

    If you have a job that is enough in demand, the employer won't cut your pay. If they do, you'll go work for the competition.

    No, you do pay him for his productivity and knowledge of the company's operations.

    Once again, you are somewhat misinformed. The usual reason for it is because of the law of supply and demand. The skills that you possess are in very high supply and the company would rather lower your pay than toss you out on the street.

    Occasionally, it is caused by stock holders and mutual funds wanting to increase the share price of your stock so that they (as owners of the company) can earn more money for themselves and their clients. There is no faster way to drive a stock price up than mass layoffs.

    Of course. Every share of common stock that you hold gives you one vote in the management of the company. You want to share in the management of the company? Buy stock in it.

    Technically, you don't have to provide any benefits to your employees under the US system. Most good employers do, however.

    That depends on what the job is.

    I disagree. Every employee should strive to be the best. There is absolutely no shortage of jobs in the United States. If you get canned, and you are skilled enough, you will have companies knocking down your door to make you job offers.

    I strongly disagree. General Motors is on the verge of bankruptcy because of its labor union. There are quite a few other big name companies that are in the same situation. The best protection a worker has is his or her skill at the job.

    Let me just say that most companies have a policy that employees should interact after hours, therefore I highly doubt that many will be following suit.
     
  16. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,366
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree with everything Rastor posted, in addition I'd like to comment further on this:

    This illustrates my point nicely. In today's global market, countries that force their companies to provide certain benefits to their employees are at a competitive disadvantage with the companies in countries that don't. So, what does a company do when it is at a competitive disadvantage? Either it goes out of business, or it removes the disadvantage. In this case a company in France was at a competitive disadvantage with a similar company in Romania because Romanian compensation packages were cheaper for the same productivity. Smart move on the French company's part to move production to Romania.

    Now, how would I feel? If I didn't want to move to Romania and have a similar quality of living as the Romanians, I'd feel like I'd better find a different line of work and quick! In the meanwhile, maybe I could tide myself over by getting employment at another French company that wasn't as globally minded as my current company, and would still pay my outrageous salary until they decided to move or went out of business.
     
  17. BOC

    BOC Let the wild run free Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,034
    Likes Received:
    14
    Then see this hypothetical example: Your employer trasfers to China and you follow him with a salary 30 USD per month. Perhaps 30 USD will be enough for decent living in China, but will be the decent living in China even close to the quality of living that you had in NY? What about your children? Will you send them in a chinese school (I don't think that you could afford an english-speaking school with that salary)?

    No, of course they are not, but they live in a country, where the cost of living is five times higher than Romania. If you're going to pay them with a lower salary because in another part of the world the salaries are lower, you'd better give them just a slice of bread and a bed to sleep for 8 hours, the result will be the same. Also, I have never seen a company complaining when the state has provided it with varius benefits and tax cuts in order to improve their infrastructure and become more competitive. Perhaps it's time for them to do something for their country and not just increasing the unemployement and poverty rates.

    I don't understand what this has to do with my question.

    Perhaps this is the case in US but not here. Here every 2 years in the public sector and every 3 years in the private sector the employees get a raise to their salaries.

    No, there are laws that state the amount of the lower salary for the new employees in a company and the owners are not allowed to offer a lower amount regardless of the supply and demand of a certain exeprtise.

    Finally, we agree on something ;) .


    EDIT

    Ok, but I hope that in few years, when the majority of the american companies would have moved to China and the remaining ones would give salaries that would barely cover you basic needs, you will not scream "Nuke China, they are responsible for this mess". :D

    [ August 06, 2005, 23:01: Message edited by: BOC ]
     
  18. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    45
    While I naturally agree that every employee should strive to be the best, everyone simply can't be the best. Besides you don't get work if there are no openings. Sure it's possible that a company kicks out someone and takes you instead but that's highly unlikely, atleast in here since it's doubtful that you are SO much better than it would actually be worth all the work.

    If you can't tell the difference between moving a job from France to Romania and moving a job from New York to Arkansas you really should study more geography. I can tell you this however, the 300 euros in Romania are not the worth nearly the same as the 1200 euros in France.

    Anyway in France the situation for employers is just plain bad. The cost of making cuts by fireing the workforce are outragous for the companies. This does not just making cuts in costs difficult but it also makes it very difficult for companies to hire new workers and to expand, which is quite damaging to the economy.
     
  19. Rastor Gems: 30/31
    Latest gem: King's Tears


    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,533
    Likes Received:
    0
    The majority of American companies are not going to move to China. 77% of the United States economy is service-based as opposed to production-based. What that means is that the companies require a skilled workforce. The only real choice for them is hiring American employees.

    Not a problem in America, as there are more jobs than people to do them. It is a problem in Europe, however. The reason is because the laws in that part of the world make it far too expensive for companies to operate.

    You misunderstand. If you are making the absolute minimum that law permits (which is doubtful), then odds are you won't be fired because the company can't find anyone cheaper. Supply and demand still applies.

    Guess so, as raises are much more frequent in some professions here.

    That's the problem. France is not providing the incentives for the company to stay in France and still be competitive.
     
  20. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8,252
    Media:
    82
    Likes Received:
    238
    Gender:
    Male
    I could not agree more. That is why many of these benefits, should be public benefits: Social Security, healthcare, daycare (so that women can do more than just have babies) and education. Many countries that provide these benefits, as public benefits, have an edge over their American counterparts.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.