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Best weapons for dual wielding

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by sarevok66, Dec 16, 2010.

  1. sarevok66 Gems: 9/31
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    well the tactic i employed was kind of cheesy nevertheless: i kept hiding in corners and saving when the beast wasnt nearby, it wasnt a true brawl like when i soloed with the monk, which is the master fighting class imo !!

    aside from that i have a question: since i got 25 in str how come i cant bust open the chest that contains the rune of clangeddin (needed to upgrade runehammer) in the woodcutter's cabin ? :confused:
     
  2. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I believe that some chests simply have to be picked. Trying going back with a rogue, and you should have no problem.
     
  3. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    Soloing, especially with a class like barbarian, means sacrificing a lot of things.

    As for the original question, DR has given some great advice, but one of the things I love best about BG2 is how words like 'deadliest' and 'best' become relative. Do you want more raw damage, more attacks, more accuracy, more AC, resistances and immunities, instant kills, stat boosts? There's something for everyone All in all, I'd say with dual wielding, mix and match as you go. There are so many different weapons you could use, and many of them have their own advantages that make them best at something. Even some pretty poor weapons on their own make great off-hand weapons (like Belm, I've never used it for anything else).

    As for advice, let's see:
    Runehammer is great, but out unless you grab a thief for a few seconds. Though even unupgraded it'ss great against undead.
    You said you missed Belm, so you're out of luck there.
    Short Sword of Mask is nice, and upgradable to +5 without any locks afaik.
    The Equalizer is great, but you said you missed that, too. I'm assuming you meant you don't have all the pieces. If you've just never bothered to put them together... DO!
    Don't try for Angurvadal, as the bonuses are half wasted on you.
    Foebane is great against outsiders and undead (and you'll fight a lot of those), plus it heals you with every hit (Larach's Minor Drain may be minor, but it's still nice with every hit).
    Spectral Brand is nice with the planar protection and stats, plus casting Mordy's Sword can be a life-saver if you're soloing.
    Celesial Fury is nice, but a little underpowered for TOB. There's a mod that let's you upgrade it, though. Improved Anvil, maybe? I'm not sure.
    Storm Star is a nice option for raw damage.
    The Club of Detonation is also nice for a solo character. Can be very fun in crowds.
    Flail of Ages, fully upgraded, is also nice, but you said you missed that (again, I'm assuming you don't actually have the pieces, though I don't know if Cespanor can do the original assembly).
    Axe of the Unyielding is GREAT. It's insta-kill ability may not work on bosses, but when you realize that the FINAL BATTLE includes a number of regular mobs (which AotU DOES work on), you realize that's a small trade-off. Plus, the other stats are nice, too.
    I seem to recall that K'logorath can be used in melee, but I don't know if it can be used with a second weapon. It's only +4, but it's speed factor of 0 and extra damage (on save vs death, unfortunately) are nice.
    Dagger of the Stars is nice, if you'll take a dagger in the main hand. Invisibility is always handy.

    I think you've missed some of the best options for an off-hand weapon, but there are still some nice picks in there. I'd say Axe of the Unyielding in the main hand (not much use in the off-hand) and switch your off-hand around as needed for each major encounter. You may consider putting Foebane in the main hand from time to time as well. Just remember, you can switch weapons easily, even in combat. And not just the main weapon, either. You can pause to switch out your off-hand weapon as needed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
  4. z27z Gems: 1/31
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    Maybe is it Westley Weimer's Item Upgrade? (here the readme... very gooood upgrades!:cool:).
    It lets you upgrade CF from +3 to +5.:eek: Banzai!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  5. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    As I recall, Improved Anvil actually "consumes" Celestial Fury to upgrade another item. I believe it upgrades Valygar's sword, but I could have that wrong.
     
  6. TS_Hawk Gems: 2/31
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    the dangerous combos are always wielded by those who are specialized in them. Some can be longsword/short sword or even Katana/wak combo the katana has a better damage to the long sword. Now a barb though.. maybe a hammer and an axe?
     
  7. sarevok66 Gems: 9/31
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    [​IMG] thanks NOG for the detailed answer, (just a minor rectification though: Storm Star is upgraded with Starfall Ore, not liquid mercury, but i didnt distribute any points in the mace ability so.....)

    yeah i'm really a fool to have missed out on belm, which gives you a 2nd attack per round, instead of that crom will have to do

    damn i still got abazigal, the ravager and amelissan to deal with, what a pain....

    EDIT: abazigal is no more, but i had to take out his salamanders beforehand, while with the monk i would just go fight the dragon head on, thats a big difference

    i think my next attempt to solo will be with the paladin, or more specifically the cavalier
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  8. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    Maybe you used rage ability or a HLA, or a spell effect from an item or such. I am not sure but they may trigger a wild surge in a wild magic area too.

    Yes, 2-hand style makes your weapon faster and gives more Crit chance when specialised. Single weapon style gives AC bonus and more Crit chance too. :)

    Umm, I never realised a THAC0 bonus for using single-weapon style, and it does not say so in the description but you seem pretty sure. :p

    I agree. It is a very efficient way and realistic too, picturing an expert swordsman deflecting blows to protect himself and dealing fatal wounds with extra skill+balance, by being one with his weapon is easier than, say, a fighter dual wielding a katana and hammer. It just...sounds...wrong. :shake: My new favourite style is single-weapon. :thumb:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2010
  9. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    :doh: Not sure how I messed that up. And now I can't find what else the liquid mercury was used for, but I was sure there was something else.

    One of the sections in the portal maze is wild magic active with a bunch of imps (or something). Their wild magic surges can effect you, including destroying all your gold.

    We had a fun discussion on this in the DA forums a while back. It's not really realistic. Historically, the off-hand was always used for something. Even in duels with rapiers and no armor, the off-hand would usually use either a main gauche or similar, a small buckler, or even just a thickly gloved hand with which they could grab the opponent's blade. The classic fencing ideal of only using one hand was sport, not life-or-death. And of course katanas were actually designed to be used two-handed most of the time.

    But those are details of reality. For BG2, single-weapon style works. Well, except for the enchantments. One of the things I love about BG2 is that they balanced the enchantments of single handed and two-handed weapons. So, duel wielding gives you more variety and choice, but using two-handers often gives you better and more powerful enchantments. A shield can sometimes equate to an extra weapon for enchantments, but sadly not often in TOB. On the other hand, single-weapon style gets nice bonuses, but is stuck with only one set of lesser enchantments.
     
  10. Silverstar Gems: 31/31
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    ^ You are absolutely right on every word you said on this post. :) I love my single weapon style, critical hits are cool! (when on your enemies, ofcourse) :shake:
     
  11. hannibal555 Gems: 9/31
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    I prefer twohanded weapon style :).
    It has the same double crit chance and trades a 2 AC bonus for +1 damge and a -2 to speed bonus.
    Plus, I'd favor a 2H weapon vs one 1H weapon any day.
    -----------

    My favorite two weapon style combo is Celestial Fury + Belm (or Kundane) for the extra attack.
    It's almost cheesy, since the stun effect triggers so often (Plus both weapons are available early on).
    This can be taken for the majority of the game and only for opponents that require +4 or +5 to hit, other combos are more useful.
    For example the already mentioned Axe of Unyielding + anything with fancy stats.

    edit:
    For a pure damage oriented build FoA + Belm/Crom Faeyr would be most certainly the optimum.
    Flail of Ages +5 has the most damage potential of all single hand weapons (average of 19.5 damage).
    On comparison: Axe of Unyielding does 9.5 on average albeit with a chance to kill with every tenth strike.
    So Foa does roughly double damage than the AoU (when opponent isn't immune to all different elements that is), if AoU doesn't get lucky.
    Even if an opponent is immune/resistant to 3 elements, FoA would still do 13.5 damage on average.

    The next question would be the off hand debate: Belm/Kundane vs. Crom Faeyr.
    Considering that the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength gives 22 str, wielding CF nets a bonus of +3 THAC0 and +4 damage.
    Disregarding the THAC0 bonus, roughly 4.8 attacks/round are needed with CF to compensate the added attack with Belm.
    Without Haste or Whirlwind a level 13 Fighter with two stars in his weapon of choice has 3.5 attacks/round with 2 weapon style (2.5 with his main hand weapon).
    So with Improved Haste/ Whirlwind FoA + CF would be the optimum, otherwise FoA + Belm. If regarding the THAC0 bonus the optimum is shifted a bit more towards FoA + CF.
    As an alternative to CF one could consider the Equalizer but I'm too lazy to do the math there, right now.

    edit2:
    Well, Equalizer has +3 THAC0// +6 damage vs. chaotic/lawful evil and chaotic/lawful good opponents.
    In this case, the Equalizer beats CF (+3 THAC0// +4 damage), but overall, CF should be the better choice
    (Again, I'm assuming the protagonist wears the 22 str belt, when not wielding CF).
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2010
  12. Pyroreaver Gems: 2/31
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    Hannibal, Improved Haste doubles the Num of attacks so both FoA+CF and FoA+Belm gets doubled, which means that with IH, FoA+Belm is still better (w/o considering thac0). It is only Under WW or GWW that FoA+CF is better, right? In this case (using GWW) it then probably becomes better to use a 2 handed sword as a comparison with FoA+CF becuase the num of attacks is set at 10 regardless. Anyone has thoughts on which 2H sword (if any) would be a better choice than FoA+CF?
     
  13. hannibal555 Gems: 9/31
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    My initial numbers are flawed, time to be more precise :aww:

    Assuming:
    - at least level 13 Fighter (+1 attack)
    - at least specialized in main hand weapon of choice (+0.5 attack)
    - wielding the best (22) Strength Belt
    - offhand damage is nearly irrelevant in comparison (CF vs. Belm)
    - average damage of FoA +5: 19.5 (resistances not taken into account)

    Abbreviations:
    - CF (Crom Faeyir), FoA (Flail of Ages +5),
    Belm (Belm +2, can also be Kundane or Scarlet Ninja-To)
    - H (Haste), IH (Improved Haste), WW (Greater Whirlwind or Whirlwind)
    - hit (to hit chance or THAC0), dmg (damage)


    First the Bonus when wielding FoA/CF versus FoA/Belm:
    +3 hit // +4 dmg

    In vanilla setup you have:
    1) Foa/CF: 2.5//1 attacks (2.5 mainhand with FoA and 1 offhand with CF)
    2) FoA/Belm: 3.5//1 attacks
    Belm wins: 19.5 dmg is better than (2.5*4) = 10 dmg. Note, though, that THAC0 is lower by 3 this way.

    Now with Improved Haste:
    1) FoA/CF: 5//2 (bonus dmg: 5*4 = 20 dmg)
    2) FoA/Belm: 7//2 (2 more attacks worth 2*19.5 = 39 dmg)
    Again, Belm wins.

    Now with WW:
    1) FoA/CF: 8//2
    2) FoA/Belm: 8//2
    Clearly, CF wins now.

    Conclusion:
    Wearing Belm nets you always the better damage when not using WW,
    but then, CF is better.
    Things that favor CF and may shift the balance a bit:
    - THAC0 is better by 3
    - Elemental resistances are more common than damage resistance, imho

    Note also, that this result favors Belm only because the average damage of FoA is so insanely high.
    The lower the average damage of the main hand weapon, the more the favor shifts to CF, naturally.


    Now your question, Twohanded vs Dualwield:

    I disregard effects like slay on hit with the Ravager, because Axe of Unyielding does the same thing.
    Ixil's Spike +6 can be devastating but relies on successful saves.

    So, the best 2H Weapon (concerning raw damage without save effects) would be
    Staff of the Ram +6: 18 average damage.
    Only Carsomyr +6 surpasses it with 18.5 dmg but only vs chaotic evil, so Staff of Ram should win.

    So with two points in twohand style you got:
    18dmg + 1 dmg (weapon style) + a double chance of inflicting critical hits
    Compare this to FoA with its 19.5 dmg + 4 dmg because of CF in your offhand.

    FoA//CF wins, but when using strength enhancing spells (resulting in 25 Str when wielding Ram),
    Ram should make the race.

    In the end I would rely more on style and preferences, since the differences aren't this high ^^.

    edit:

    Now that I think of it, imagine FoA with 'Single Weapon Style'!
    19.5 average damage plus double crit chance (and better AC) versus
    19 average damage plus double crit chance (Ram with 2H style) .

    That only proves that all these 3 offensive weapon styles are very viable on their own.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  14. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You would also need to take into consideration that Belm won't hit enemies requiring +3 weapons or better.

    Question: It's been awhile, but doesn't FOA+5 give you free action, which makes you immune to slow/haste? Therefore, you don't benefit from Haste/IH (and maybe WW/GWW) if you have FOA+5? I seem to recall testing this out once, and IIRC, that was indeed the result.
     
  15. hannibal555 Gems: 9/31
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    Good question, I should test this later when home again.

    edit:

    I've done some testing.
    Version: ToB with latest patch and the latest Baldurdash Fixpack.

    Free Action is indeed bugged.

    Test1a:
    Character1 with Ring of Free Action equipped, Char2 casts Improved Haste, but it does nothing for character1.
    Test1b:
    No Ring equipped and spell cast, afterwards ring has been equipped => doubled attacks despise the ring equipped, so it works.

    Test2:
    Free Action active via equipped Ring. Use of GWW => works perfectly

    Test3:
    Free Action active via equipped Ring. Use of Improved Haste via Ring of Gaxx => works perfectly

    I used my latest ToB save and had no FoA +5 yet but only the Ring of free Action, but I guess the same results
    should happen with FoA +5 which is just another item with 'Free Action' effect like the Ring.

    So it seems, that HLAs (I tested GWW) and Haste effects by items (I tested Ring of Gaxx) should work with Free Action.
    When cast as a spell by a mage it doesn't work, but it will work by 'cheating' and first letting the spell be cast and then equipping the 'Free Action' item.

    Finally I find it kind of weird in the first place; isn't free Action supposed to protect you from harmful hold effects? What does
    hasting yourself has to do with it? Would that be conform with the DnD 2nd edition rules?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  16. Pyroreaver Gems: 2/31
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    Man, I just wish that scarlet ninja-to can be used by fighters... that'll be even cooler.
     
  17. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    That depends on your opponent and class. For a paladin +6 Carsomyr is awesome -- especially if your opponent is CE, the ability to dispel on a hit should never be underestimated. There are really only four top choices for a two-handed weapon with GWW: +6 Carsomyr, +6 Staff of the Ram, +6 Ibix Spear, +6 Ravager. All four of these are great because they blow through Absolute Immunity. For damage, the Staff of the Ram is awesome (I believe +12 damage per hit), while the insta-kill ability of Ravager (percent chance on each hit) will tear through most enemies.

    For two-handed swords in general (not for paladins) the enhanced version of Gram is probably the all around best unless you are fighting creatures who can be decapitated, then the Silver Sword is best. Against some creatures the Psion's blade will save your bacon.
     
  18. krasimir Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG] I do remember wielding double short swords to maximize backstab. Or was it long swords?
     
  19. Manjuu Gems: 2/31
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    I'm going to be difficult and reply with "it depends on what I'm fighting". Two maces of disruption, for example, would be very handy if I was fighting undead. Then again, if I was fighting trolls, I'd go with the flail of ages and a flame blade.
     
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