1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Best Thief possible

Discussion in 'BG2: Shadows of Amn (Classic)' started by Thewl, Jul 27, 2003.

  1. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    335
    Just to clarify Aldeth’s comment (and I have a feeling this is what he meant), I don’t think you can dual-class anything (thieves or otherwise) into a specialist mage, nor can you dual-class a specialist mage into anything (possible exception for an illusionist?). This is because, in order to be a valid dual-class, it must also be a valid multi-class, and the only valid M/C specialist mage is a gnomish illusionist/thief, as Aldeth said.
     
  2. Laches Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    Think you could dual class a specialist mage into something for the same reason you can dual class a thief kit into something (ex. swashbuckler>mage is legit). You can't dual class 'into' a kit but you can dual 'from' a kit (barring the use of SK or other utilities).

    The thing is, people typically don't want to dual 'from' a mage, kit or otherwise, because a mage gets her true power at high levels. Conversely, other classes/kits gain a great deal of usefulness at lower levels (like thieves, with a moderate number of levels you could have all the thief skills up to ~100; or the hp of a fighter class which maximizes its hp benefit at 9).
     
  3. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Generally I think that among the multiclassed thieves the mage-thief, the gnomish illusionist thief especially, is the most capable and interesting, as the mc fighter-thief becomes very mediocre over the game, gaining levels slowly. The mage-thief is a formidable back-up spellcaster and can even be a good primary one when he's backed up with a little brute force.

    But even a normal thief can be surprisingly strong, just don't use him as a frontliner, he isn't made for that. So don't wonder that my favourite thief is a female halfling one (thanks to ability and paperdoll).

    Reverting to less convential means it is possible to create a normal multiclassed thief as a pregenerated char (in MPlayer), open it with SK and add the kit you like to have - be it a mc barbarian/ kensai/ berserker/ wizardslayer or kensai-rogue or mc-swashbuckler/ assassin or bountyhunter-mage (especially the swashbuckler variant is a little cheesy IMO, because of the immense AC) or even my favourite - the very funny mc wildmage-thief (you only need to add the two spells the wildmage gets on lvl-1 to lvl-3 then - iirc chaos shield and nahal's something).

    These are very enjoyable new chars that add some spice to a game when you have played it a couple of times.
     
  4. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    @ Splunge

    Thanks for the assist. Yes, I was trying to say you can't dual INTO a mage specialist regardless of what class you started with. I also don't think dual-classing works with illusionists, because only gnomes have the ability to be specialists and something else, and gnomes can't dual class.

    However, I think it IS possible to dual from a specialist into something else. A specialist mage is like a mage kit. However, as stated, why would you dual from a mage into something else?
     
  5. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    335
    @ Aldeth - Yep, you're right. I just tested dualling an Abjurer and an Illusionist to a fighter, and they both worked. But as you suggest, this is a purely academic exercise, since dualling from a mage (specialist or otherwise) doesn't make a lot of sense. Of course, all this is way :yot:

    Edit: @ dAS (below) - I didn't want to create another off-topic post, so I'm editing this one. Dualling to specialist mage only works in BG1. Confirmed here.

    [ July 31, 2003, 16:03: Message edited by: Splunge ]
     
  6. dAS Gems: 3/31
    Latest gem: Lynx Eye


    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2003
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm pretty sure you could dual to a specialist mage, but you need the appropriate stats. For instance, a fighter dualing to a mage will need I believe 15 strength and 17 inteligence but will need 15 strength, 17 intelligence and 15 constitution to be a conjurer, or something like that. Illusionists require a different stat than a conjurer...I forget which goes with which specialist class. This was how it was in BG 1 but it could have changed in SoA. There was an FAQ I read it on and it worked from what I could tell. Maybe I'll find the link...

    Thanks for the heads up. Anyway, to get back on topic, your thief will probably not miss anything by becoming a mage rather thana specialist mage. This is the only combination I find appealing, besides fighter->thief which I feel is a bit powergaming...A mage with the ability to hide and a better thaco would be nice to play, and being able to open a few locks or disarm traps that would kill them out right is a plus.

    [ July 31, 2003, 17:15: Message edited by: dAS ]
     
  7. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    Illusionists other requirement is dexterity. That's why I don't think it's possible because Imoen would have dualled to an illusionist - she certainly would meet the requirements. (Which is also why it makes sense that thief-illusionist is a natural combination for gnomes i.e., high dexterity required.
     
  8. Chevalier Mal Fet Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2000
    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gnomes don't get a bonus to dexterity. The combination makes sense because gnomes are a race well known for their aptitude with illusions.

    If I recall correctly, dualing to a specialist was quite possible in BG1, but now that there are kits, and specialists are considered wizard kits, and one cannot dual to a kit...

    You get the idea. I'm not sure this is correct, 'tis just what I remember.
     
  9. smr49 Gems: 1/31
    Latest gem: Turquoise


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    13
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    I guess I misstated that "Ranger-Druid" comment. I was going to try that next, but have already packed my games since we bought a new house and don't know that it works. The comment about a party of three is a seperate idea and my favorite way to play, since everyone levels up so darn quick. :)

    Sorry for throwing that "Ranger-Druid" thing out there before testing it... :(
     
  10. xnnixq Gems: 2/31
    Latest gem: Fire Agate


    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Best thief huh? There's no such thing as the best thief. There's no such thing as the best character in the game. I like the assassin the most thoug. :rolling:
     
  11. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    The best thief possible impossible? Of coure not! The best thief possible is a halfling pure-class thief with dex-19 - no other race-class-kit combination offers more thieving skills and greater versatility.

    Thiefs aren't fighters. They aren't made for melee. Of course, there are thiefs who are better in combat, but eventually the best thieflike combat classes are either the monk or the stalker. So it's always up to your preferences, insofar you're right xnnixq, but there definitely is a best thief.
     
  12. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    335
    Well, I may be crazy for getting into a debate with Ragusa over the best thief possible, but I can think of two possibilities, depending on style. Both assume halfling for 19 Dex, with the Girdle of Hill Giant Strenth for 19 Str.

    1. Assassin, for superior backstab and poison weapon. While there are fewer thief points to go around, IMHO the only important thieving skills are find/disarm traps, the 2 stealth skills (move silently and hide in shadows), and open locks; along with equipment bonuses from items like Nights Gift, the assassin will have more than enough points for these. Set traps is a luxury, but hardly necessary. The other skills IMO are not useful often enough to jusify spending points in; pickpockets can be handled by Gloves of Pickpocketing and Potions of Master Thievery.

    2. Multi-class fighter/thief, for better melee and ranged attacks - weapon specialization (extra thac0/damage, extra attacks), fighter attack bonuses. Fewer thief levels, but full points per level; same comments as to allocation of points as above.

    *steadies self for a pummelling from Ragusa*
     
  13. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem I have with pure thieves or pure thief kits is that after a while, the extra ponts you get become useless -- IIRC, there is ALWAYS a 1% chance of failure when it comes to picking locks or pockets, detecting traps, and all those things. So, once you have an ability over 100%, extra points seem kind of, well, pointless. This even happens with my favorite multi-class character, Jan -- even he ends up with 100+ points in all of his thieving skills (maybe that doesn't happen until, ahem, LATER, but it still happens).
    Jan takes care of all the thieving I need him to -- I'm not much for pickpocketing, all I really use thieves for is picking locks and finding traps (though the ability to SET the occasional trap is quite nice from time to time, though I have a tough time doing that without cheating and using knowledge from previous runs through the game.)

    I don't like putting my thieves anywhere close to melee -- their high dexterity makes them naturals for missile weapons, and even kits with melee combat bonuses like the assassin or the swashbuckler, well, they still only have 6 hit dice. Even a fighter / thief only comes out to 8 hit dice, and when you're going toe to toe with some of those big boys, you want 10 or 12 hit dice and the benefits of a 17 or 18 CON going for you. In the case of Jan or either of the 2 dualled girls, using a bow, crossbow, daggers, darts or slings makes a lot more sense than sending them in to flail around with a staff or a short sword.

    If the backstabbing mechanism were more reliable, I'd use it more, and I might even try a full run through with an assassin, but I've just never got the knack of the old backstab procedure.
     
  14. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    335
    Are you sying that you have difficulty getting the backstab to work? Because I used to as well, until I got the hang of it. Walk right up behind the enemy so that your circle is touching his, then attack. Some people suggest using F2, but I'm not really sure how this helps much (more my ignorance than anything else).
     
  15. Laches Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    With the exception of pick pocket, imo, all of the thief skills are incredibly useful and necessary if you have designs on a solo career.

    Detect Illusion is spectacular for getting rid of invisibiliy, improved invis., shadow door, etc.

    Traps are incredibly helpful in a tough fight and of course if you ever want to play tob become the most powerful weapon a thief has.

    I do agree that after a point more thief skills are redundant and largely not helpful but my point would be ~150 and not 100 -- it may appear that the numbers are % based but they aren't - a 100 in hide in shadows isn't really 100% with the always present 1% chance to fail.

    To say who the best 'thief' is probably depends on what you're looking for and when you consider them. Looking at them at level 15 will yield a different result than looking at them at level 40 (assuming exp cap remover since this is soa). I also wouldn't discount combat ability as part of determining who is the 'best' thief since a dead thief's thieving points aren't particularly useful.

    Edit - I've never had any probelms with backstab either. I don't worry about my circle touching or anything like that - just so long as I'm behind the guy and I've got the right sort of weapons it's always worked *srhug.
     
  16. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    -As for backstabbing and the widespread popularity of the assassin here - I have played every sort of thief here and then and actually I didn't notice a real difference in damage between 5x backstab damage and 7x backstab damage - the assassin's poison weapon is spectucular, but that's about it.
    -The bounty hunters traps are cool, but with the standard traps and the later high level ability traps you have tons of them - and who doesn't get bored setting ambush after ambush?
    -And as for the swashbuckler: The great thing is the good THACO and the progressive AC bonus. That make up for a very good char. Then only dualwield shortswords or scimitars and you have a char who deals out formidably - lacking hitpoits to take damage.

    As for skill points, I spend about 100 per skill, later as I get ballanced over the spektrum I spend what I get on numbers up to 200, even if that's hardly useful - but my thieves aim on perfection ;) .
    A pure halfling thief virtually drowns in skill points when he comes to ToB. It isn't a real drawback then to choose an assassin, the high level compensates for the lack of skill points.

    Definitely, it's what you're looking for: If you want a fighter with backstabbing ability, get a stalker and not a fighter-thief who may be more versatile but definitely inferior in combat. If you want a bread and butter solo char get a mage-thief so you can gain xp by learning spells, opening locks and disarming traps. If you have a party with strong chars a comparadly weak thief will be perfect as a support char. It's your choice.
     
  17. Tassadar Gems: 23/31
    Latest gem: Black Opal


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2001
    Messages:
    1,520
    Likes Received:
    8
    fighter/thief multi-class - sit back and watch the body count rise

    but i prefer playing a pure thief - much more challenging, and different strategies are required for different situations
     
  18. Mystra's Chosen Gems: 22/31
    Latest gem: Sphene


    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2002
    Messages:
    1,451
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fighter/Thief/Mage will kick any Fighter/Thief's ass.
     
  19. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    This is slightly :yot: , but it was mentioned briefly earlier in this thread. Someone pointed out that if you start with a thief in BGI, you could dual him to a specialist mage. From personal experience in dualling Imoen, I know this to be true. However, what was never answered is if your PC is a thief and you dual them to a specialist mage while still in BG1, do you still get to be a thief/specialist mage in BG2? or in this case would you revert to just a thief/mage in BG2?
     
  20. Septic Yogurt Gems: 9/31
    Latest gem: Iol


    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2000
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    0
    in my last run through the game, I used a swashbuckler and a stalker to cover each others asses, it was a a good combo of characters, but if its for a pure thief, i thought the swashbuckler was awesome, the bonuses the kit gets much outweigh the penalties.

    But if backstab is the way you like to play, I would suggest taking a stalker with you, other than that, i'd say a pure vanilla halfling thief, no other class will be able to beat them for pure thieving skills.

    I havent had much experience with trying to tank up a thief, but my swashbuckler was moderately tough, but i just used tanks for that situation anyway.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.