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Best race for a sorcerer?

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale 2' started by countduckula, Sep 9, 2008.

?

What is the best race for a sorcerer?

  1. Human

    40.2%
  2. Aasimar

    24.4%
  3. Drow

    24.4%
  4. Other

    11.0%
  1. Mordokai Gems: 6/31
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  2. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    No worries, sometimes the obvious isn't.
     
  3. spmdw45 Gems: 8/31
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    Not as much as you'd think. According to JUPP's testing, many of the spells they'd love to cast on each other aren't affected by SR anyway, e.g. Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, Feeblemind, (Abi-Dalzim's) Horrid Wilting, and Meteor Swarm. Great Shout is NOT one of these, so I guess that means the Drow wins automatically... if the duel takes place at a range less than 30 feet, and there was no time to prep beforehand (e.g. by casting Seven Eyes).

    (And by "automatically" I suppose I mean "the human is forced to cast Great Shout too, and the Drow is unaffected 40% of the time" since he's two levels lower. Discounting the dynamic levelling effects for the sake of the "duel.")

    -Max
     
  4. lendial Gems: 4/31
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    I am a little confused about dynamic exp distribution.
    It sounds like a party of 6 ECL will be roughly the same level as a party of 6 non ECL in the long run?

    as for the topic: i would say drow is the stronger race pick in the long run. Once you get to HoF, WotB is really the only thing that can effectively kill huge mobs of monsters at a reasonable pace and having +1 dc means a lot on a 20 monster mob. Mass dominate is the other big hitter and also relies on high DC. Symbol of hopeless from a 40 int bane cleric is fun too :) but youll still have to follow up with AoE.
    Strong spells like horrid wilting and DFB will start to wane in power because even a lowly orc will have 300 hp and theres always an issue of riendly fire(which sr will help immensely).

    Early on, human is obviously stronger due to the level advantage(unless you're squatting like a mofo). The extra feat at level one is rather negligible but gaining extra stats from a tanked int score opens up a lot possibilities.

    Courtesy of JUPP: Humans can also take 1 level of paladin for massive save bonus and martial weapon proficiency, another level grants them immunity to fear, though it seems you will still be affected if you roll a 1. You can also take a level of monk to gain evasion-- essentially granting you immunity to "dodge-able" spells if your reflex save is high and allowing you to use special monk only gauntlet which increase attacks per round and opens up very interesting melee options. A previous also suggested taking a single level of ranger for dual wielding but this is not terribly viable in HoF unless you designate this sorc as your primary melee berserker as well.

    If we only care about end-game which is essentially HoF mode:
    drow: SR , 2 char , no mix in meaning ~9 less saves, no evasion possiblity
    aasimir: NO sr, 2 char , paladin mix in but no evasion possibility
    human: NO sr, extra ability scores/skill points, paladin and monk mix in

    sorcs gain almost no additional spells/day after level 20 so the only worth is increasing the damage of uncapped spells like DFB, skulltrap, and durational spells like mass dominate. Even then, its still worthwhile to take 1 if not 2 or 3 class mix ins for added protection and versatility.

    with that in mind, i still go with JUPP's human sorc+ mix in path :). regardless of which of the 3 races you choose , i believe sorcerer is the strongest single class in iwd2 and if i had to play through the game with just 1 character from 1 class i would choose sorc.

    also, where can i find detailed enemy information like madae's class(Which is aparently level 20 cleric) and also stuff like AC/resistances/saves/attack roll BAB?
     
  5. coineineagh

    coineineagh I wish for a horde to overrun my enemies Resourceful Adored Veteran

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    [​IMG]
    No, but an all-drow party will eventually only be behind 1 level, instead of the 2ECL penalty, due to increased XP gains. They'll never catch up to a non-ECL party though.
    In fact, offensive spellcasting in general suffers, making buffing the best course of action. JUPP also mentions that high DC doesn't solve everything: Spell Resistance is overcome by caster level, not DC (but if you mix in paladin with aasimar, and also monk with human, then you're on the same level as a drow again). Immunities are also very annoying and hard to keep track of: high level Slayer Knights are immune to many enchantments that affect low level versions.
    What's a 'tanked INT score'? Do you mean having hight INT for extra skillpoints? Sorcerers only need concentration and spellcraft, so more than 2skills/level only opens up multitasking possibilities.
    Here on the Boards AFAIK, the guy who first suggested mixing in monk with a pal1/sorcX (CHA-enhanced reflexes + Evasion, :)yay), is the same guy who thinks there's merit to mixing in a ranger level. The ranger is timed appropriately, but its benefits are also improved by a mod, Light of Selune (needed to purchase a ranger-only bow with 1.5x STR bonus to dmg:D).
    http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showpost.php?p=669006&postcount=13
     
  6. lendial Gems: 4/31
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    Tanked meaning min'ed to to 3 (rts jargon).

    I've found that Mass dominate is the only effective solution to HoF slayerknights other than a +8 luck berserker.

    props to you then : ) as i find this little innovation well worth the cost of missing a few sorc levels.
     
  7. Sir Rechet

    Sir Rechet I speak maths and logic, not stupid Veteran

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    Although mentioned in several tangential comments, it pays to note it explicitly: The actual level difference between a Drow and a human can, in worst case scenario, become up to FOUR levels, not just two. That's the difference between a Human Sorcerer in a party with average ECL of about two or above and a Drow Sorcerer in an otherwise ECL zero party. And yes, that's HUGE difference in favor of humans.
     
  8. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Isn`t it odd, though, that a race like the Drow wich has a bonus to their INT score: meaning they are more inteligent than average....and yet they learn more slowly than races who have an average inteligence score.
     
  9. Sir Rechet

    Sir Rechet I speak maths and logic, not stupid Veteran

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    Well, that's just because how the power of the sorcerers is explained in game: You're born with it, you don't learn it in the way wizards do.
     
  10. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Except it goes for all Drow, not just the Drow sorcerers. The point is that they're more intelligent in general (+2 modifier for INT), but level more slowly (ECL +2), so in effect the appear to learn slower.

    Of course it's a balance issue, but Rawgrim has a point in that it's counter-intuitive.
     
  11. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Yes, thats what i meant, Henkie.
     
  12. spmdw45 Gems: 8/31
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    In my experience, high-STR sorcerers (what Sir Rechet calls "berserkers") are the powergamer's first choice. It doesn't really cost you anything to max out STR and have decent DX, and with an investment in a single feat (Rapid Shot) and a nice 1-gp sling you can double or triple your total party damage output compared to a traditional melee-heavy party (which only gets 1 attack/round from the melee fighters, and 1 very weak attack/round from the back line casters).

    Assuming 1 front-line DG decoy or tank, that's 11 attacks per round for a six-man party. 1 melee attack for 1d6-1 or so, and 10 attacks for 1d4+4, so roughly 65 HP of damage/round modified by the hit percentage (call it 50% for goblins), at first level. (Also, slings generally get at least one "free" shot off in the time melee fighters take to close the distance.) That makes the Targos goblin attack into a cakewalk rather than a tough fight.

    In short, everybody who can possibly afford it should have a missile weapon, high STR, and Rapid Shot feat, ASAP. It makes the game so much easier.

    -Max

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 11 minutes and 14 seconds later... ----------

    IIRC Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is one of those spells which ignores spell resistance (as well as Evasion). Use of Horrid Wilting in friendly fire situations is not advised, Cera Sumat or not.

    -Max

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 40 minutes and 51 seconds later... ----------

    Drow can mix-in a level too. A 20% XP penalty isn't actually really a problem as long as you make sure that everybody in your party has that same 20% penalty, so the dynamic levelling kicks in properly.

    -Max
     
  13. NguyenGiaThai Gems: 3/31
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    Eh~ I realize yesterday that my 3INT human sorceress need 14Spellcraft to get access to elemental feats, due to the heavy penalty from 3INT. Which mean level 12 for her. While a 14INT can get elemental in lvl9, talking normally with high CHA. A difference of 4 level without the 1st elemental.

    Might as well make a 12INT Human Sorceress as your party Diplomat.
     
  14. Sir Rechet

    Sir Rechet I speak maths and logic, not stupid Veteran

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    That's actually not true. Without exp penalties your average level always gravitates towards the "intended" level, and while the direction of this gravitation doesn't change with penalties, the force of it goes through a dampener. So you'd need some extra pull (ie. be at least one level lower) to compensate just to keep up. That doesn't add up favorably no matter how you slice it.

    Keeping one or two characters deliberately from leveling up by piling up a motherlode of exp penalties on them is something else. It's only THEIR share of exp that goes through the cut, while the rest of the party gets more due to the mule's low level.
     
  15. spmdw45 Gems: 8/31
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    It's true, but maybe you thought I was stating something stronger than I was. I didn't mean you'll always be at the exact same level as you would without the 20% penalty. However, you won't be 20% underlevelled either. At a rough guess, you'd probably be 1 level behind the normal maximum if everyone in your party had a 20% penalty. This could potentially be very much worth it--it depends upon how you utilize the extra mixins.

    -Max
     
  16. Sir Rechet

    Sir Rechet I speak maths and logic, not stupid Veteran

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    You don't even need a rough estimate for that - one level lower average level is roughly 20-50% more exp gained for kills, with larger percentage differences at lower absolute levels. I was just noting that while non-ECL and ECL races are, in fact, rather neutral in terms of expected level reached, exp penalty is just that - a penalty you WILL feel in the end. However, just as you noted, it can also be utilized to push everyone else in your party to a higher level, although the opportunity cost is rather severe.
     
  17. koval321 Gems: 1/31
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    These races have effective level 2 at beginning, which mean it show level 1 but are strong as reach already level 2
     
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