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Berserker versus Sorcerer

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Aug 12, 2004.

  1. Evil Dad Gems: 15/31
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    I think the question is all about what the Berserker can do to get through the Sorcs barriers. He needs to lower resistances, protections and spell casting ability.

    Using the available equipment to summon allies would give some respite to the Berserker, plus simulucrum of course. This would force the Sorc to waste some spells on dealing with the summons.

    Can we change this from a Berserker to a Blade?
     
  2. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    What is the "next enemy" is a goblin?
     
  3. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    If the next enemy is a goblin, then so be it. You just re-cast the CC and move on. :)

    I don't think it's worth the time for the sorcerer's opponent to summon something. The summons are gone once the Time Stop is cast anyway (Death Spell). If the sorcerer even bothers with them.
    Can the summons do something more than the berserker to stop the sorcerer in within 1.4 rounds?
     
  4. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    LOL... I can't understand the nature of this argument!

    High level spellcasters will always (almost) be more powerful than regular fighters.

    Anyway a low level Sorceror wouldn't stand a chance against a low level Berserker ;)

    Hey! What about a wizard slayer with 100% MR? -lol-
     
  5. nataben1314 Gems: 10/31
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    Even a character with 100%+ magic resistance may get beat by a sorcerer simply because a sorcerer can make himself essentially invulnerable, and kill with summons/timestop/things that ignore magic resistance.
     
  6. Truper Gems: 8/31
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    Gads. I'm nowhere near the expert most of the posters here seem to be, but I'm wondering whether a seldom-mentioned item that's one of my favorites would help the Berseker out any: the Helm of Brilliance. Would a Sunray from the helm find our presumably misled, mirror-imaged, stoneskinned Sorcerer and interrupt his Time Stop?
     
  7. Maertyn

    Maertyn There's nothing I cannot embrace! Veteran

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    The sorcerer could protect himself from fire with a fireshield. If it's 100% protection I don't know, but there's always Protection from elements. Hmmm... maybe you could do some damage despite these precautions, enough to make the spell fail - I wonder what Earl and Aldeth think about this. There's a sword which can cast sunray also (you get it from the crypt king).
     
  8. Bluerose Gems: 4/31
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    You get Daystar from the lich in the City Gates area. But even if the sorc has 100% fire resistance, ha can be interuppted - at least he says "ouch".
     
  9. Foradasthar Gems: 21/31
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    Shouldn't the Ring of the Ram penetrate pretty much any defenses a Sorcerer could muster in such a short time (one of my favorite items, that)?

    Assuming the battle is fought in a cage, the knockback feature of the ring wouldn't hinder the Berserker one bit.
     
  10. Mayfairy Gems: 8/31
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    Or the ring of energy? (A standard tactic, that.)
     
  11. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    You need to have a target for Prismatic Spray.
    Besides that problem, Mirror Image as always protects against area damage.

    Fireshield is overrated.
    The damage inflicted by it is insignificant so lower level spells Pf Fire or Pf Cold fill the same function.

    Target invisible.
     
  12. Jaguar Gems: 27/31
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    Okay, maybe I was a bit off. But I didn't mean for the Arrow of Biting(s) to stop the CC, but prevent the casting of some spells afterward, and maybe take out the clones. (Provided the Sorcerer isn't protected against poison 100%)

    Is there any item or skill that a Beserker could use to inflict alot of small damage to the Sorcerer?
     
  13. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    Well, the sorcerer could - and probably should - wear the Ring of Anti-Venom (immune to poison).
     
  14. Faraaz Gems: 26/31
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    All this conjecture still cannot touch the Sorc. Face it guys, if he has Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, Mirror Image is snapped up INSTANTLY. After that, the berserker cant touch him for atleast one whole round, which is time enough to cast Time Stop, if the Sorc so chooses.

    Even so, any self-respecting Sorcerer will have Stoneskin on all the time, considering the duration its got. SO, he will most certainly have time to cast Mirror Image, and once that is up, he has a whole round to get any other spell up...say, Protection from Magic Weapons. This will give him another 4 rounds.

    Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting x 4?
    Time Stop?
    Stoneskin + Mislead + Mirror Image + Spell Immunity:Divination?

    Trust me, there is no comparison, ever. Sorcerers own this game so badly, you cannot touch a Sorcerer.
     
  15. Evil Dad Gems: 15/31
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    There are some weapons that do ability point drains. If an ability reaches 0 is the Sorc dead? If so, then this would be the way in...

    GWW for a round (or so) and you should hit enough to drain a good few ability points. The Sorc would use time-stop, etc. You and your summons would deal with the images, hopefully quick enough for you to drain some more ability points.

    There has to be a way around this, as all classes with the same xp should be fairly equal in power. If a fighter can solo the game, then surely a Berserker can find a way around the Sorcs defences.
     
  16. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Yes, Faraaz, we agree with you that the sorcerer is definitely in a good position here. The question comes down to what are the options a berserker has to get through a chain contingency of mislead, mirror image and stoneskin - if any such options exist. The Ring of the Ram and Ring of Energy won't work because you have to actually target the creature/person you want it to hit, which you can't do if said creature/person is invisible. Even if you went with project image instead of mislead, you'd only be able to target the clone.

    Another thing just hit me - a much better opponent for the sorcerer would be a multi-class fighter/thief. By using the detect traps skill (which also detects illusions) a fighter-thief could instantly knock down the mislead and mirror image, before the mage could even get the SI: Divination up.

    Other than that, unless there is a summon the beserker can use that can see invisible creatures, I don't think he has a chance. Kithixx (spelled wrong, but the spider from the figurine) can't see invisible. What about the improved Kithixx? Any chance that the golems from the book of golems can see invisible?

    The only thing I can think of that would even give the beserker a chance would be if he had a book of infinite spells and had true sight. Even here though, I think you can only use it once per day, right? So after dispelling the initial chain contingency (presumably you could get rid of everything except the stoneskin), it would give the berserker about half a round to do something before the sorcerer casts invisiblity, mislead, project image, whatever and go invisible again, and there would be nothing the berserker could do about it.

    Note that this tactic would not work with a fighter/thief, as the detect illusion spell (provided it was bumped up near 100%) would see through all of that.

    EDIT: Just saw bard's post. Yes, there are items that drain ability scores, but certainly you have to be able to hit the sorcerer for this to work. There are countless ways for a berserker to kill to sorcerer if he can see him. I'm going off the assumption that the sorcerer casts CC right off the bat, giving the beserker 1.4 rounds to do something about that before imminent death.
     
  17. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Elemental damage (fire for instance) would get through the stoneskin, although I'm sure the sorcerer will come up with a solution... if he expected this kind of damage.

    Still, the berserker would need to be able to locate the sorceror. :(

    @Aldeth: a MC Fighter/Thief would be a much tougher opponent for the sorceror. ;)
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I'm not too worried about the stoneskin actually. I'm more worried about seeing him. One greater whirlwind on the sorcerer and the stoneskin is D-U-N DUN. Still, I don't know how a beserker can see him long enough to do this.
     
  19. Faraaz Gems: 26/31
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    The stoneskin is only there for long enough to keep the bulk of the Berserker's melee power at bay. Elemental damage...yeah, it can get through the stoneskin, but with the equipment the Sorcerer's going to have, Mirror Image would be up instantaneously, and then he can get a Prot. from Magic Weapons up, and then what?

    Nothing. Well...it stands to reason that the classes of equal levels should be equally powerful...but unfortunately, that is not the case, and I am pretty sure, that the Sorcerer class is broken, in the sense, too powerful.
     
  20. Earl Grey

    Earl Grey Mmm... hot tea! Veteran

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    Where does this idea that classes should be of equal power just because they are of the same level or have accumulated the same xp come from?

    Hasn't it always been accepted that arcane spellcasters would eventually become the ultimate power, while the fighters would have the upper hand at the low levels?
     
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