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Baseball Hall voting, finally they are opening there eyes!

Discussion in 'Colosseum' started by Blades of Vanatar, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I cannot help but think that it's not mere coincidence that McGuire comes out a month before spring training the year he becomes the batting coach of the Cardinals to announce this. It's the first time he's been involved in baseball in an official capacity since his retirement. I'm sure there was an un-written agreement in place between him and the Cardinals that he had to come clean, so that the current players wouldn't have to be subjected to "did he or didn't he" questions all year from reporters.

    T2,

    I think there are going to be a ton of players who had a chunk of their careers pre-steroid testing (the Steroid Era) that are going to get into the Hall, simply because if there's no suspicion of them ever having used steroids, you cannot rightly not vote for them. Certainly there will be a few inductees that just never got caught, but I suspect that steroid use was just as prevalent, and possibly more so among the lesser players, as they may have used just to be good enough to make a roster.

    Griffey is a no-brainer, as are people like Glavine, Maddox, and Jeter just to name a few examples.
     
  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The timing of McGwires speech was not in anyway used as a tool by him for sympathy or to gain Hall votes. I am pretty confident he is resigned to the fact that he will never get in. If he had an actual agenda about getting into the hall, he would of held it prior to the hall voting this year. LaRussa has said it was part of the agreement that he speaks out prior to the season starting. To clear the waters for McGwire and to get rid of any controversy that could come of it prior to the season, so the Cards can just focus on baseball.

    As for the Steroid era, Manny, Clemens, McGwire, Raf, Sosa, Bonds, they will never get elected. Pettite's numbers are close, but his use will also be the nail in his coffin as well. Ortiz doesn't have the overall numbers and sucked in the field, so he's out. Pitcher-wise, the three studs from Atlanta will get in. Johnson, Mussina and Schilling will make it. Hoffman and Rivera as well. Pedro too. He reached 3,000 K and was very dominant for alot of years. Hitting-wise, you'll see Jeter, Griffey, Thome, Ichiro, Chipper, Puljols, I-Rod, Bagwell, Biggio. I think Sheffield is worthy as are the awesome numbers of Vlad, but I'm not sure they will get elected. We'll see.
     
  3. ChickenIsGood Gems: 23/31
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    I never really saw Schilling as a HoF player, maybe that's just me, but he never passed my eye-test.

    I really wouldn't have a big problem with Clemens in the hall, no matter how much I hate him. The guy was one of the best pitchers in the game even while he was a stringbean. Same thing goes for Bonds, hate the surly attitude, but he would have been a shoe-in before he "filled out" :p
     
  4. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Now I-Rod is a very interesting case indeed. I really think that he is a player that gets overlooked, but he was probably the best catcher in the game earlier in his career. While I never thought of him as a HoF candidate lately (I even forgot he won an MVP until I looked him up on baseballreference.com), he's a little light on homers, but overall his numbers are solid.

    Pettite will be an interesting case, as he is coming back this year, which will further solidify what are currently borderline stats. Fairly or not, I do not think that all players linked to performance enhancing substances will be treated equally. I think some voters will vote yes for people based strictly on the numbers, whether they used steroids or not, others will not vote for anyone connected to steroids under any circumstances, and others it will depend on the player. I think a lot of people do so Pettite's transgressions to be as serious as that someone like Bonds. However, there is also the argument of whether Petitte's current numbers merit Hall induction (he's close, but he's no slam dunk option). He isn't like McGuire who would already be in the HoF if it were not for his steroid use.
     
  5. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I-Rod will get in. His numbers exceed all catchers in history including Campanella and Bench. Defensively he might be a little behind those two, but his longevity is quite remarkable at the position (he's played more games at catcher than anyone in MLB history). I think he is widely recognized as the overall best catcher ever (and Bench was my hero when I was growing up).
     
  6. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Defensively behind? He has thrown out more runners tyring to steal 2nd than any other catcher in history. He has also picked off more runners at 1st and 2nd than any other in history. He was awesome defensively, especially in his Ranger days.
     
  7. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Better defensive catcher than Bench ... :lol:
     
  8. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Defensively, Bench was great, no doubt. So was I-Rod. And Gary Carter. And Brad Ausmus for that matter. But none of them match up to I-Rod. Slews of base stealers didn't attempt to steal 2nd because of his rocket arm. That is a major advantage given to his team when in the field. I can't speak as much about Bench in terms of his impact on the other team's running strategies, as I didn't see as much of Bench, I was born in 73. But my father, a huge baseball fan, has always said he thought Carter was the best defensive catcher he has ever seen, where Bench was by far the best Hitting catcher and # 2 defensively. I have seen lots of Gary Carter and IRod was definitely better than defensively. His arm was dynamite.
     
  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I saw Bench in his prime. I saw Carter in his prime. I respectfully disagree with your father, Blades. IMO, it wasn't even close defensively.
     
  10. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Bench was a defensive presense on the field. He played against the Dodgers and Cardinals regularly -- two of best base stealing teams ever with the greatest base stealers of all time (I don't count Ricky Henderson -- he had the numbers, but Brock and Wills were better). He had literally half the base stealing attempts that Fisk had -- nobody, not even Brock, challenged his arm regularly.

    Bench was also a brute. If there was going to be a close play at the plate the runner rarely challenged Bench.
     
  11. ChickenIsGood Gems: 23/31
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    I only started to follow baseball when he was older and less useful, but Pudge definitely deserves in. The guy played 140 games at catcher several times, which is just insane and had a power arm at that position. Not to mention the fact that he hit like a good first basemen.
     
  12. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    That was an awesome aspect of the catcher in those days. Pete Rose charging into the catcher was always a site. I loved the game of the 70s and 80s compared to todays homerun fest at almost every stadium, barely ever a pitchers duel type of game now. High mounds and high&tight fastballs were the days!:)

    But in IRod's defense, that couldn't be the case in today's game, everyone is bigger and faster, Bench wouldn't have that type of presence at home. The catchers have just as much to worry about as the runners do nowadays.

    DMC, you could be right, for some reason, my pop did have a little something against Sparky and his boyz. Probably being a lifelong Phils fan and getting tired of the Reds & Dodgers being on top of hte NL in the 70s. Who knows...

    But my point still stands, IRod is another Defensive monster. I would of liked to see him play against Herzog's Cards of the mid to late 80s. Carter didn't fair that well in those games, but the Mets staff of Gooden and Company wasn't the best holding pitchers in the league. Especially Gooden. His high leg kick allowed for easy basestealing of his opponents.
     
  13. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hey, I compared him favorably to two hall of famers who redefined the position.
     
  14. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I know T2ax. :D Just making my stand for IRod.
     
  15. General Ghoul Gems: 8/31
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    With Dawson's enshrinement, I think we will see several years of 2 or less inductees, most of whom will be old timers, still on the ballot after several tries. Those tainted in the steroid era will not get in. Maddox, Glavine, maybe Biggio, but not McGuire or Bonds or Clemens. The writers will punish them while baseball did not.
     
  16. crucis

    crucis Fighting the undead in Selune's name Veteran

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    GenGhoul, part of the problem with some of those guys you mentioned (like Clemens or Bonds) is that they were never caught by a drug test during their careers, and MLB could hardly punish them on suspicions only.

    I do think that you could say that Bonds has been sort of punished in the last couple of years after passing Aaron's HR mark in his final season with the Giants. No team would touch him, so in a sense he was being suspended without an actual suspension. (Of course, it's also fair for no team to be willing to take the risk of signing him with issue of a potential criminal indictment against Bonds.)

    As for Clemens, any proof against him has come after the end of his career, so he is basically untouchable. It's not like they can hit him with an after-the-fact fine.

    I do agree that those at the forefront of the steroids scandal, such as Bonds, McGwire, etc. are quite likely to be "punished" by HOF voters. Heck, IIRC, McGwire only got about a 25% vote in this past HOF balloting.

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    Atually, T2, I believe that this differs by league. In the NL where you have no DH to hide a seriously weak glove/great hitter, it entirely likely that you'll see plenty of weak fielding 1B-men. But in the AL, quite often that sort of player gets shifted to DH, and the 1B-man will be a more capable defensive player (though maybe not great).* For an AL team, it becomes a spectacular bonus when you can find a great hitter and great gloveman in the same package for 1B.

    * Think of the 2004 Red Sox. Ortiz was the DH, while Kevin Millar was the 1B. Millar, while not a great 1B by any stretch, was more mobile than Ortiz. But in NL parks (interleague play and the WS), Ortiz would revert to playing 1B. (Actually Ortiz isn't a terrible 1B ... for his size. But he's not particularly athletic, and the Sox preferred not playing him at 1B unless it was required, to avoid the risk of injury.) Millar was sort of typical of the sort of 1B that the Sox used for a few years... Not as great a hitter as whomever was their DH, but a better fielder than the current DH.

    Come to think of it, a few years back, the Yankees had a similar situation for a few years with Nick Johnson and Jason Giambi. Giambi is nominally a 1B-man, and certainly would be in the NL. But the Yanks would play NJ, the better defensive player, at 1B, and shuffle Giambi to the DH slot.

    Note that this isn't to say that the AL, per se, has better defensive 1B-man. Guys like Pujols, Teixiera, and Youk are the exception rather than the rule. My point is only that some all bat-no glove 1B in the NL would be DH's in the AL, and those AL teams would go with a decent bat/decent glove 1B instead, simply because the DH allows them to make that choice, whereas NL teams have little choice but to move no-glove/all-bat types to either 1B or maybe LF.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 5 minutes and 25 seconds later... ----------

    As for Edgar Martinez getting into the HOF, I'm not so sure. For me, it's nothing against DH's... DH's should be entirely eligible to get into the HOF ... and any HOF voter who refuses to vote for any DH should have his HOF voting rights revoked.

    For me, it sort of comes down to what I read in an article by some local baseball writer about EM. The way he put it, this writer couldn't vote for Edgar for the HOF because he simply wasn't a feared hitter. He wasn't the sort of hitter who you were deathly afraid of having come to the plate with the game on the line.

    That said, his career stats are quite nice, and it's possible that he might get into the HOF some day. But I don't think that he's anywhere near to being a lock to get in.
     
  17. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Who wrote that article? Every article I have ever read about Edgar, either from writers or quotes from players, show Edgar as one of the most feared hitters of the AL when he played. Nobody wanted to pitch to him. He had the sweetest, smoothest and most consistant swing of his time. He was a pure hitting machine.
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I always considered A-Rod and Griffey to be the most feared hitters on those Mariner teams.
     
  19. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    A-Rod and Griffey, both were stikeout capable as their BB/K ratios for their career show. Pitchers could get them out. Edgar is the only one in the plus of the group if the BB/K cat and has by far the highest OBP of the three, .418/.390/.378. Not saying the other 2 aren't dominant and great as well, their numbers are both Hall worthy(Though ARODs PEd use will bury him...), Griffey being a no-brainer, that lineup had 3 nasties in a row for about 5 years.

    http://www.abarim.com/edgar.htm - Here's a good link to an Edgar accomplishment site. That fact that MLB named the DH of the year award after him says something. They bestow that honor on players who were not just great players, but players who helped the game in other ways as well. Edgar was the pinnacle of that type of player. A team player, a mentor to the young and a community guy as well.
     
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