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Attributes discussion thread

Discussion in 'Dragon Age: Origins' started by Caradhras, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Strength

    + needed for heavier/better armours and weapons (and Intimidation).

    For Awakening Warriors: 54 Strength (Massacre).

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Dexterity

    + needed for some weapons (bows).

    Dexterity is useful for Warriors to unlock some talents especially in the Sword and Shield (26 for Shield Mastery), Archery (52 for Rain of Arrows) and Dual Wielding (50 for Unending Flurry) lines.

    For Awakening Rogues: 52 Dexterity (Flicker)

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Magic

    For Awakening Mages: 61 Magic (Time Spiral)

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Cunning

    + needed for skills (16 points) persuasion and some rogue abilities.

    Cunning is really important to Rogues especially with Lethality

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Willpower

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Constitution

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX​

    Simply looking at talents:

    -Warriors need a high Strength (Dexterity of 26 for Sword and Shield, 50 for Dual Wielding or 52 for Archery... no Dexterity prerequisite for the Two Handed line)

    -Rogues need 52 points in Dexterity and a high Cunning.

    -Mages need a high Magic.

    There is a minor interest in getting 16 points in Cunning to unlock fourth skill ranks (not that it should be a problem with the Fade bonus).

    ->What about Willpower and Constitution?

    Is putting points in these attributes really worth it when you could put these points in other attributes that are more needed?

    Not to mention the fact that Vitality and Clarity in Awakening make the somewhat minor bonuses to health, stamina or mana rather unimportant.

    I understand that Constitution may be more needed for Blood Mages or that Magic makes potions better but I can see no strong reasons for investing in Constitution for a Mage or Magic for a non-Mage character.

    Am I missing something? What do you do with stats and how does it play out? Opinions please.
     
  2. Loreseeker

    Loreseeker A believer in knowledge Veteran

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    In general, I avoid putting points in Constitution, for any character (haven't played Blood Mage though). Tend to prefer relying on armour and healing to stay in a fight.

    As for Willpower, I used to invest points into it with mages (and some Talent heavy chars) but once the mods are taken into account, I generally skip on that too.

    Willpower probably makes sense with lower levels, when running out of mana/stamina is fairly common.

    (However, potions could bridge that, only I'm not in the habit of using mana/stamina ones).
     
  3. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    A Guardian will also need a few points in constitution. Holy Smite is affected by willpower. Spirit Warriors may consider putting a few points in willpower too.

    Constitution and Willpower are supporting stats. Once you have your survivability and damage covered you get better returns for putting a few points in them than raising strength or dex, depending on character type, party composition and gear availability.

    Character type: Shapeshifter is pure/semi-pure magic, because everything he needs is taken cared of by the spellpower stat.

    Party composition: A shielder doesn't need to invest heavily in dex anymore if the party mage knows his way around support spells, or if the party mage is capable of wiping out most threats quickly. In this case he's better of raising his str, or even con/willpower by a bit. While putting more dex on a tank seems to make more sense, party-wise (bigger picture) it doesn't matter when you have less to tank/you're loaded with buffs.

    Gear availability comes into play when there's more than one type of any class in the party. Two warriors need to share, two mages need to share, etc. The guy who ends up using subpar equipment, for example, may need to focus more on his main stats rather than con.

    In my recent party for example (Justice, Me, Oghren, Sigrun) Justice was a str/dex oriented Temp/Guard/SW shielder with points in con and willpower. My pure magic mage (Shapeshifter primal nuker, heh) kills almost everything in sight so he didn't need sky high def, better he become more effective in killing off survivors. Against bosses his con helps keep him alive long enough for my PC to throw the occasional Heal/Force field. In any case, Grab skills (which most bosses have) ignore def. Willpower helps him spam (the shielder tree is pretty stamina intensive in Awakenings) and improves his other skills.

    Oghren was pure Str. Between me and Justice, he didn't need to worry about anything else. Not to mention he was wearing the best gear I could buy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  4. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Regarding Holy Smite:
    Willpower would have to be pretty high to make much of a difference.

    I can't see any particular benefit a Spirit Warrior would get from Willpower or a Guardian from Constitution, could you be more specific Scythesong?

    Also I don't think that there is anything wrong with maxing out Strength with a Warrior even when the damage output is considered to be sufficient. For a main character the Fade bonuses are probably enough as far as Willpower and Constitution are concerned.

    I used to give my Mages more Willpower especially at lower levels (what Lore pointed out) but not anymore since the return on these points seems rather minimal when considering that maxing out Magic makes quite a difference.

    I get the gear thing party wise (except that gear is rarely a problem in a modded game but I understand that it is beside the point here).

    It may be ok to spend a few points around to get a minor boost but I'm under the impression that spreading attribute points between different attributes hurts a build more than focusing on a single attribute (thus making it as good as possible). I've actually tried different builds before reaching this conclusion.
     
  5. Munchkin Blender Gems: 22/31
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    Mage
    +2 Magic and +1 Willpower every level up

    Warrior
    +2 STR every level up until it hits 50 than +1 every level
    +1 DEX every other level until it hits 30
    +1 CON every other level until it hits 30
    +1 Magic or Will Power every other level once DEX and CON are both 30.

    Rogue
    +1 DEX and Cunning every level
    +1 STR/CON every other level until 20 in DAO and 25 in Awakening


    When I play a warrior if I go with the Templar or Spirit Warrior specialization I tend to increase magic as it does increase the damage for the one area affect talent that these two classes have.

    When I played a shapeshifter mage I increased Magic and Willpower +1 every level and STR, DEX or CON +1 every level. Once willpower is 30 magic receives +2 each level up.

    Since my rogues are fairly balanced I don’t really have to modify how to distribute ability points.

    When I use a book I increase the ability that would help me achieve a talent if I’m missing a point or two in a specific ability.
     
  6. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    What talents are you thinking about?

    Holy Smite relies on Willpower not Magic (see my previous post).

    The only use a Warrior can find with Magic is a little more healing from Poultices (and only a little more since regular Health Poultices give [50 + (Magic-10)]x2 health back) and a minor boost to Mental Resistance.
     
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    I tested Holy Smite and magic made damage increase not will power; well at least on the PS3.
     
  8. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    That's odd but if you've tested it then it must be different on the PS3. Is the difference more important on the console as well?
     
  9. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    It bothers me that magic may affect Holy Smite instead of Willpower. Anyway the "check against willpower" part is what really matters, not so much the damage.

    According to the skill tooltip the effectiveness of the Guardian's skills are determined by his con. Same for Spirit Warrior and willpower. The Spirit Warrior also eats up stamina like crazy, what with all sustaineds and especially if you give him another offensive spec and make him a spammer like a two-hander. Stamina pots help, but do not completely solve the problem.

    Well think of it this way. At high levels (ie Awakenings) your ideal damagers should be doing around 150-200 damage per hit. 20 stat points is 100 HP/stamina points or 12 more points in damage (each point in str increases damage by around 0.6). So do you want the 6% damage increase or the 100 more stamina/HP.
    Of course, if your results favor pure builds I would trust those over these numbers. We don't exactly have the same playstyle Cara. :p

    I don't think shielders will miss the 12 point decrease in damage overmuch, as long as the party mage kills off enemy mobs fast enough.

    My policy is usually: damagers pure/semi-pure str/mag/dex (except rogues), others are mixed. I don't like making "pure" dex/cun rogues. Funny thing is that many people love discussing rogue DPS in fantastical ways.
    The thing is that rogues (of any stripe) are masters of DPS. In practice any above average str/dex/cun rogue can kill almost as fast as a pure str/dex/cun one. What's the point in making a pure dex rogue if he only kills faster by about 2 seconds? :p

    IE:
    "Pure" Rogue
    1600 damage over 4 seconds = 400 DPS.
    Some Rogue
    1066 damage over 4 second s= 266 DPS.
    Some people are screaming "600 points/200 DPS OMGz that's huge!" at this point btw.

    Nevermind that:
    "Pure" Rogue
    1600 damage over *6* seconds = 266 DPS.
    Some Rogue
    1066 damage over 4 second = 266 DPS.

    :bang:
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  10. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Well that makes some sense. Of course Clarity and Vitality come into play in Awakening and talents like Second Wind too.

    When you put it into perspective with a percentage it looks rather convincing (although you can't have both HP and stamina). ;)

    The problem I see with Constitution and Willpower is that you have to invest many points in these attributes for them to pay off and if that comes at the cost of dishing out less damage that is not so great.

    Especially when considering Origins.

    I'm thinking about Loghain who starts out with more Willpower and less Strength and who is not as good as he could be with a little more Strength when you get him late in game.

    If we consider a main character starting in Origins it seems rather logical to focus on more active attributes first instead of supportive attributes (especially considering Fade bonus and items like the Lifegiver ring which gives +10 Constitution and before that the Warden's Oath which gives +2 Constitution the Chevalier armour for +3 Constitution and Willpower, the Legion of the Dead Armour for +3 Willpower, the Juggernaut Armour for +3 Constitution or Reaper's Vestments for Mages +6 Constitution for instance).

    On the subject of items we could take things even further, Nug Crusher may not be a perfect weapon but the bonus to stamina (+100) helps with Final Blow for instance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  11. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    Well anything that isn't a damager usually doesn't need too many points in their active stats. 20 more points in magic is only +6 healing, for example. Better to just dump those points in willpower and get 100 extra mana. If you use powerful mana potions then it'll be worth it.

    I actually prefer Loghain as is. Then again I prefer throwing nukes and stuff, even my Rogue mostly throws bombs and sets traps. I also don't have dedicated healers. So Loghain and his high willpower complements my playstyle well (he spams shield skills while my damagers do their job). You people and your dedicated healers. :p
    No wonder you need all the offense you can get your hands on, heh.

    I like Nug Crusher. If only I could carry it with me to Warden's Keep.
     
  12. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    The effectiveness of Lyrium potions is based on a character's spellpower so a Mage with a higher Magic score will need fewer potions than one with a higher Willpower and a larger Mana reserve (the timing for gulping potions will be different though as the high Magic character will have to wait longer to get the most of better Lyrium potions while lesser potions will net a little more mana anyway).

    I hate having a dedicated healer or spamming healing spells and I HATE Wynne (I find her rather obnoxious as she is not a good person but a misguided judgemental old fool). I'm not a big fan of the Tank + Healer school, I'd rather outdamage the enemy than play the clock and outlast foes.

    My playstyle revolves around Alistair and his shield with 26 Dexterity and the rest in Strength using Assault and other attack abilities rather than sustained defense stuff (and he rarely runs out of Stamina), Leliana and her Bard Songs both as a melee and a ranged character (with enough Dexterity to use her bow and the rest in Cunning), a third character who is generally Oghren for two handed damage or Zevran for backstabs and my main character preferably a Rogue and a backstabber. Sometimes I like taking the Dog along instead of Oghren or Zevran. I leave Morrigan in camp with the Sten to keep her company and let her craft potions (the higher the better -as far as potions are concerned I prefer quality over quantity I don't care if I waste them since it reduces the number of potions that are actually used and that is what matters to me).

    A three Rogue party is just too much fun. Stunning foes and using stealth with poisons, traps and bombs when I feel like it (traps and bombs with stealth are just too effective). They hit hard and fast and Feast of the Fallen helps with Stamina.

    I rarely use Mages (I'm currently playing one though so I'll need a party that shields him until I get the Arcane Warrior specialization). As far as Warriors are concerned I'm fond of Two Handed weapons specialists (Indomitable!) with some Archery thrown in for certain situations (Shield and Sword types are nice but I usually keep Alistair in my party -at least up to the Landsmeet).

    A Mage focused party would play differently. It's true that you don't need people capable of dealing weapon damage that much when you have three Mages using damaging spells and pulling of Storm of the Century, Shockwave or Entropic Death.

    A party with say Morrigan, Wynne, a Mage and Shale would be just too boring IMO.

    I've just noticed this last bit. The way I see it there is nothing wrong with going for more damage. :p

    Let's face it, once a Rogue gets 20 points in Strength with bonuses and items there is no need to pump points in Strength unless you want to use bigger weapons instead of daggers (which will still work but won't be as effective).

    Pre-Awakening I use to advocate a reasonable Dexterity score (around 26) and a very high Cunning score (for backstabs) and that still applies to Origins (I only have to remember to put points into Dexterity if I want to take that character to Awakening).

    Bard songs greatly benefit from a high Cunning score as well.

    My first character was a Strength/Dexterity/Cunning build and his scores were too spread out. I wanted to dual wield large swords and wear heavier armours and that makes for a very poor Rogue build. Not that this character couldn't get the job done but he wasn't as great as my second Rogue who was a pure Cunning build (with only 24 points in regular Dexterity for Momentum and in order to use The Edge with item bonuses).

    I'm not a big fan of high Dexterity Rogues, I don't like to rely on Defense either and I find that heavier armours have a major drawback for a Rogue since they tend to attract enemies like flies.

    Now I usually go for a Rogue build that aims for 52 points in Dexterity a reasonable Strength (for stuff like Red Jenny Seekers or the Helm of Honnleath) and the rest in Cunning. I can see no real need in putting points in other attributes.

    The truth is you don't need a "perfect" build to finish the game even on Nightmare but going through foes like a hot knife through butter is just too much fun.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2010
  13. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    I don't exactly hate Wynne but I don't particularly like her either. Her prejudiced comments against anything anti-Tower related annoys me.

    3 mages is too much micromanagement. Seriously. I don't find that fun anymore :p. I personally prefer 1-2. My playstyle is Alistair spamming shields skills (basically disabling anything that comes to near) while my mage nukes and Leliana shoots down survivors. The 4th party member is usually Morrigan, although any other DPSer capable of taking care of himself/herself will do.

    My Leliana's stats are usually 2:2:1:1 dex/cun/will/str. Being the only rogue she gets to keep all the dex items, so she doesn't have trouble reaching high def or meeting the requirements of powerful bows. I rarely take Zevran, anyone who melees had better be able to survive the occasional friend fire. I like this setup since it prevents her from doing too much damage too early. The additional willpower also allows her to use more arrow skills, some of which are great disables - Shattering Shot has an undocumented knockback effect useful for mages, Suppressing Fire is very useful against damagers, Arrow of Slaying is a great preemptive skill since you gain back almost all your stamina if you use it before battle. I compared this build's DPS with that of an older, dex/cun build and difference was only around 14 points per arrow on a critical by end game. Since she shoots about 10 times per encounter (except against bosses), that's like 1 fireball on a single target.

    Nathaniel, however, is almost pure dex-built in Awakenings. The "epic" Archery skills make bombs/traps obsolete. Sigrun is built similarly to Leliana though.
     
  14. omnigodly Gems: 17/31
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    My favorite build currently is a DW Tank. I only take what I need to grab momentum, threaten, taunt and max out berserker and either templar or reaver, depending on if I feel good or evil.

    attributes go str very high, dex 36 (just enough to be able to DW 2 main hand weapons), willpower to at least 20, con to 20.

    Lots of HP, lots of Mental/Physical resistance, lots of solid passive damage (I prefer passive bonuses to activated ones in most games).
     
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    Passive talents are the best; they improve the character without wasting stamina.

    Besides the passive the next best set of talents are those that you have to activate but don't use stamina/mana. That is why I don't mind rogue specific talents. They are not passive but they don't require stamina to use.

    Finally the last set of talents I are the talents that use stamina but the talent offers a unique effect, damage increase, etc...
     
  16. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    I'd say that the highest dps builds focus simply on one stat. Cunning rogues with tons of +backstab % gear and the blood talents (with my rogue, I calculated all the +str gear I could gear for individual slots, and then added the rest of the strength that I would need to equip warden commander armor (ended up only being one or two points)). He easily has the best situational dps of any character I've made on one target because of his insanely high cunning. Assassin+bard, the high cunning makes bard songs better than duelist bonuses. With all the +Attack Speed available to dual wield rogues, you'll attack very fast; he killed bosses in seconds flat. Sneak attack damage in the hundreds, very fast attack, high survivability and CC, high stealth, high cunning for traps and locks, very fun.

    Highest 'sustained' dps belongs to a dual wield warrior who puts only enough dex in for dual wield mastery, and then pumps everything else into str, throw on the legion set (or nothing) and you'll be as good of a tank as a sword and board Alistair (okay, not as good, but good enough to tank anything in the game). Dual-weapon strike, momentum, all the passives (except the accurate striking), reaver/berserker, pumps out damage to everything around him with non-stop damage. This build ends up doing tons of damage because it hits like a 2h'er, but much faster if you use a fast off-hand.

    Willpower is useless on anything but mages imo (unless perhaps you're some sort of tanking templar, but I don't know about 'tank' builds); and only slightly useful on mages. Warriors are better off getting a +Stam item or set, which gives more than enough to throw up every sustained in the game and still use 3-4 specials. I recommend to new plays to go with a 2:1 magic/willpower ratio; however experienced (or rpg experienced) players don't need any points in willpower. More magic means more points from potions, you'll easily get a full bar from the smallest type of potion with enough magic; and alchemy makes potions unlimited in stock (mage tower sells 99x stack of lyrium dust which never depletes). The exception is if your main character is a primary healer, spirit healers are smart to put more into willpower, or at least a 2:1. There are so many ways to get MP back from other mages and potions that willpower isn't that useful. I never used potions on my mage simply because Morrigan and Wynne rejuved/spellbloomed me whenever I got moderately low. Even with spell might up constantly I never went out of mana.

    Though myself, I play blood mages, and stack full magic/use con items. However, no matter how maximized the player is, Wynne will always do more damage. With full spellpower boni and the best dps mage gear, her special ability gives her over 200 spellpower and enough to one shot Kangaxx.

    So in my opinion; stacking a single stat leads to the most powerful (though not always most fun for everyone) characters. DPS Warriors stack pure strength. DPS Rogues stack pure cunning. DPS Mages stack pure magic. Doing this, it's wise to do the mage tower first and raise some of those stats that you are neglecting. There are more builds based on support which can focus on multiple stats, like tanks, healers and CC'ers, but I do not have enough insight into these classes to offer an adequate opinion.
     
  17. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Kangaxx?? As in Kangaxx the Lich/Demi-Lich from Baldur's Gate 2?? In Dragon Age? I must know where to find him.
     
  18. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

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    It's actually Gaxkang, sorry! XD He's a revenant, though I'm sure he's a homage to Kangaxx.

    You have to do three things before you can get him to spawn:
    Loot the adventurer's corpse in the brecilian lower ruins
    Lott the dead adventurer in the ruined temple during the haven/redcliffe quest
    Talk to the nervous adventurer in tapster's tavern

    Then go to the dirty back alley in Denerim and enter a hovel, I believe it's called; talk to the man there and he turns into Gaxkang. Drops the best 1h sword in the original game outside of DLC.
     
  19. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Gaxkang, got it. Yeah, I've defeated him a few times. I can't believe that I didn't make the connection between Gaxkang and Kangaxx before, but now that you mention it, it's rather obvious.
     
  20. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
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    Wynne will always do more damage with a single spell. Unless you respec her and turn her into a full nuker then she'll never be able to outdamage a well built PC nuker. I'm pretty sure a PC character can one-shot Gaxkang using spell sustaineds and +spirit damage gear. Then, there's the Hexes. As it is, I can bring him down to 1/4 HP with Staff of the Magister Lord and Spell Might.
    The +stamina sets are not that good except for the +stamina. The stamina regen sets, however, are pretty good.
    Lyrium potions are affected by spellpower x 0.5. That means 20 attribute points = 100 mana, around 6-7 points of healing/damage and 10 more points of mana per Lyrium potion. Cara :p
     
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