1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

All the Classes VS the Bard

Discussion in 'BG2: Throne of Bhaal (Classic)' started by Scythesong Immortal, Dec 12, 2003.

  1. casey Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well Scythe I do not know how you see them yourself but I see them as a respectable class with some good potential, but I also see them as inferior to the F/M/T, F/M or Sorcerer with no/normal weapons and equipment but otherwise can stand a chance at least against a Sorcerer. And that says a lot for Blades as it is seeing as there are only a small amount of characters that could stand a hope against him.

    All right, talking about solo-wise, a multi-class fighter/mage can handle battles after battles before he/she needs to rest, but for a bard, I believe he/she will use up all his/her spells in just a few battles. So, if anyone wants to play solo, I hardly think he/she will play with a bard which needs to rest most of the time, thus wasting time. And unless Cheesy or powergaming tactics are used, I don't think bard will have a easy time in BG2.
    Skywind how is this any different then a Sorcerer? a Sorcerer still needs to rest all of the time as well if he want's to keep all his high level spell's which is what makes him so powerful in the first place, unless you use wish a lot which you don't get untill late SoA and ToB is just terrible gameplay wise and barely worth playing a second time (unless you solo whuch then makes the Sorcerer too easy and boring plain and simple)

    Looking at Sorcerers and Bards from a different angle, Bard's with there high lore can be great at identifying items by just looking at them, and Sorcerers are the exact same if you pick Identify so they can bothh be useful there IN DIFFERENT WAYS. For power the Bard can be almost as great as an Inquisitor for Dispeling Illusions and protections, and lowering MR making protected enemies, well, less protected, leaving them more vulnerable and easier for the rest of the party, and sorcerers with there awesome magic prowess can just throw fireballs and CoC's and all sort's of spells around the place to weaken the enemy, so for power they are more or less equal party wise that is IN DIFFERENT WAYS. For party buffing the Sorcerer probably is better in the beggining then the Blade but not as good as the Skald by mid game, the Sorcerer can improve haste the fighters doubling their attack speeds but when the Blade get's improved Bard song and casts two or three mislead's can buff the party better then a Sorcerer can hope to achive, even more so since the bard can cast Improved Haste, so they are both very good IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

    I would like to make it clear now in case anyone doesent realize by now that I am not comparing which one is "best" for party play I am comparing the unique way's each class has for helping the party in their own way's, this is a unbiased, view I am looking from and not a "this one is better then the other one" view, there IS a difference.

    Strife Strike:
    The Bards have one underestimated abilty that only they can use... the ability to play instruments, I had a party of four with.

    me
    Imoen
    Jahiera
    Aerie

    I managed to survive early on by using Jan---> Imoen to Malison, Jahiera to summon insects (or conjure animals if no spellcasters) Aerie to use the wand of monster summoning from Irenicusis dungeon (which you can get 50 charges of by selling/buying) to buy enough time for the casters spells to complete, and then I as a Blade used the harp of Pandimonium which more often then not put at least half of the enemies into confusion and blow back the rest, and from there it's a simple matter of falling back a bit if nessicary and buffing/preparing and by the time I am ready to attack nothing could stand in my way :)

    I'm not sure but isn't that the gauntlets of extraordinary specilzation?
     
  2. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    Im soloing, though i prolly will bring immy and Sola through the game till at least the eclipse counter. Imoen for banters, and Sola for the added toughness to the game. Im surviving basically with a wand of monster summoning, and wand of cloudkill, but its annoying and tough. Still he has gotten a lot better since the beggining, and when i hit level 15 and start using skeleton warriors i think things will get a bit easier.
     
  3. Skywind Gems: 10/31
    Latest gem: Zircon


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Scythesong Immortal,

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But once each class gains more experience and levels the Bard won't have to cast spells as frequently, and won't have to prepare as much. The f/m/t will have to cast more to catch on to just a few of the Bard's spells.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By my experience, with his/her backstab ability, the f/m/t can put most slightly difficult battles to an end quickly without much spells. Anyway, I would rather use f/m to compare with bard, as f/m will have more Lvs in fighter and mage Lvs to be more powerful than f/m/t(the spell "knock" will be able to cure the need of thief Lvs).

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    After all, 50 charges from a Wand of Lightning will bring you far... Or if you hate the concept of recharging, you can just buy a Wand legitimately then.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    By my thinking, give the f/m or f/m/t the same wand, and he will still be able to cast more than the bard.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The whole point of bard vs other classes, by the way, was meant to prove that the Bard can take on anything and maybe live.
    This was to show people how versatility can be used as a weapon - one class' weakness used against it, or interjoining several of the abilities of the game in conjunction with one another for a special, powerful attack.
    The f/m/t can do somethings similar, but he lacks too much intensity in contrast to the bard because his levels are too low to count. (This also means fewer HLA's, weaker level-depended abilities etc.)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As I said before, I would rather use f/m to compare with a bard, so I don't think this is a problem, as the f/m will be able to get the best HLAs of both classes. Anyway, my view is that no one class is the best(no one class can handle all encounters easily. Some encounters are easy for fighter and some are easy for mage etc).

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW, I hope you're meaning the new meaning of Jack of all Trades. It just seems that nowadays, Jack-of-all-Trades roughly suggests that the character is not good at anything and is therefore, useless - a common assumption supported by all the other games I've played so far.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Don't worry, to me, it means a bard can do many things, but he/she will never be better in anything than anyone who is specialised in that thing(for example, he can't last longer than a fighter in a battle field, and can't cast more spells than a mage).

    @casey,

    I think you have mistaken. I didn't mention a single stuff about sorcerer in my previous topic. Anyway, spells like "limited wish" etc will be able to solve the problem that sorcerers might face. And don't forget, sorcerer can cast spells more often than wizard even, thats why some people prefer sorcerer over wizard.

    [ December 18, 2003, 06:24: Message edited by: Skywind ]
     
  4. Valer Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    What you are doing is comparing to PC, instead of checking, with what character it is easier to complete the game - i mean all the quests, what solo character can do. The fastern wins. And the time must be the time measured in the game, not in the real life. It is easy to sleep at every corner in the dungeon!

    If there would be such a race, i am sure the F/M/T would win! Great balance of magic, traps, and power.
     
  5. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,111
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    6
    So I'm back to square one again. Bahhh...
    Okidoki.
    F/M will be better than the Blade at melee and magic - but once the Blade goes under the influence of his own song, he becomes better at melee.
    Greater Whirlwind will not be much of a problem since the Bard can also catch up to 10 attacks per round, using special weapons - which he can freely thanks to UAI.
    Smite, Criticals, Greater Deathblows... a Bard can catch on to this under Enahnced Bard Song X 5.
    And if a Blade uses Offensive Spin, he can deal massive amounts of damage that only a Kensai-kin can match.
    Hardiness and the like will be settled by spells and items.
    Timestop can be cast from Scrolls via a Simulacrum. (Arguably cheesy, but it depends on what difficulty you're playing on)
    The Bard's Traps go against the inability to cast powerful Mage HLA's and spells. This is not enough - but both are equally effective as long as traps are applicable.
    Yes, the F/M is more powerful than Bards or Blades generally - but in the full regalia of all buffs and item effects the Bard can for some rounds (15 or so... until the buffs disappear) he can be better.

    Let's have a scenario again, shall we?
    Comets, Alacrity, Dragons Breaths, Horrid Wiltings and Timestops = A similar scenario, only that we have Timestops, 10 attacks per round, level 40 damage spells like flame arrow (yep, flame arrow's not on the spellcap list - for something like 20-115 or so damage, go figure), 40+ damage per hit (or a stat draining weapon), -20+ THAC0, -27+ AC and absolute invincibility.
    Of course, the F/M can also absolute-invincibilize himself but only in the rare occasions where magic is not applicable.
    But remember that while there are situations where magic isn't effective, Melee is effective everywhere. (Short of Dead Magic Zones)

    The F/M is adept at lowering his enemies resistances before going on a spell frenzy, and the Bard is also adept at unbuffing just about anybody of their weapon protections.

    At any time before this, the F/M will be using his fighter HLA's, spells, items and fighting abilities. Bards will be using their traps, spells, UAI-enhanced fighting and defensive abilities, items and in the case of the Blade more than enough spins. It's fair - of course, F/M's will be arguably more powerful at this point but it's enough that the Bard can also manage.

    The Bard will only be resting much at earlier levels. (Though I have made it through BG2 without sleeping. An F/M/T could have done much better, but at least I proved something)
    But he won't be once he gets more powerful.
    The F/M, btw, should actually rest more than a Bard earlier (short of Irenicus Dungeon) because Bards can become very powerful very early thanks to his thieving skills. (steal the best items from merchants ASAP, go after the best items in the game immediately afterwards - justifiable Bard roleplay-wise)
    A Bard can manage early-mid SoA with only very good items, like the F/M/T can.
    But the F/M catches up quickly, of course.

    Backstab. Bahh... The Bard's greatest weakness against the F/M/T. This doesn't work everywhere though - only in the the non-boss or more general battles. The fact that the Bard can manage these too without the benefit of backstab is though is enough.
    If you want to be cheesy and use Backstab + Mislead then Bard will respond with Enhanced Bard Song X 20.
    Nobody wins though, since Backstab doesn't work against bosses and its plain stupid to have a Bard cast so many images for a non-boss battle.

    As for the wands bit, the F/M/T can use a similar tactic, which puts him and the Bard in one package for being able to become very powerful very early. 50 Wands of Lightning can kill just about anything in an enclosed area (including the PC, so aim carefully) and the other wands are no less powerful. The Wand of Paralyzation is especially effective in cases where the Bard is forced to fight immediately.

    As for F/M/T being able to get through SoA more easily than the Bard, but of course. But in ToB, the Bard can get through much better.
    Insane difficulty, however, intensifies this - the Bard becomes unparallelably pathetic in early-Mid SoA and the F/M/T will have a very hard time in late ToB.

    [ December 18, 2003, 11:28: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]
     
  6. Valer Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are right...slightly. But you forget, that the F/M/T still can cast level 6, 7, 8 spells. The most powerfull ones.

    I realy backstab through the whole game, with the Staff of Magi and the CF, this is good for minor enemies, like mind fyers, and vampires. For golems, the staff is good enough.

    But big bosses fails also - think of the assasination. I do at least 4 attack + haste, and all of them is multiplied with 5... That is about 500HP in a round.

    I can choose from 3 class's HLA. That is a big advantage, and have 20 of it (you have 22).
     
  7. Rastor Gems: 30/31
    Latest gem: King's Tears


    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    3,533
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scythesong, I have to ask, what stat-draining weapons are you talking about? The only true stat-draining weapon in BG2 (no mods) is HD's sword. You keep talking about using them, but there are only 2 weapons that drain levels per hit (late in the game), and no stat-draining weapons useable by a PC bard.

    Don't forget that a F/M can use almost everything that a bard can, and more (F/M can use Robe of Vecna, bard can't).

    The bard does have some good abilities, but I highly doubt that he can beat a F/M at higher levels (F/M is more powerful due to higher level spells, and can use all the tactics that bards use).
     
  8. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    F/M beats bard yes, but hes the only class that really obliterates blade. The others will have some difficulty doing it in TOB. Really any class that can cast spells up to level 6 is impossible to beat if it doesnt want to be beaten.

    Edit: MY bard just got a lot better. Im level 15 now and just got outta planar prison, im doing trademeet now then going to asylum. My Thaco has gone through the roof, since when I got out i picked up blade of roses and the Drinker sword. Nice. Anyway im picking up belm and leaving Amn for a bit. What should i use with Belm, the drinker even though its +2 (but it makes me immune to confusion, which is really a godsend), or blade of roses (better Thaco?) Also where can I find a tensers scroll?

    [ December 19, 2003, 05:13: Message edited by: Strifestrike ]
     
  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,658
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    Rastor - Bard gets UAI, thus, he can wear the robe of Vecna in TOB.
     
  10. Skywind Gems: 10/31
    Latest gem: Zircon


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2003
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Scythesong Immortal,

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Greater Whirlwind will not be much of a problem since the Bard can also catch up to 10 attacks per round, using special weapons - which he can freely thanks to UAI.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ??? what weapon in BG2 can give you so many attacks and is powerful at the same time? The only weapons with additional attacks that I found are weak +2 weapons. Come on, a +5 or +6 two-handed weapon will be hell-damages, if combine with a greater whirlwind.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Smite, Criticals, Greater Deathblows... a Bard can catch on to this under Enahnced Bard Song X 5.
    And if a Blade uses Offensive Spin, he can deal massive amounts of damage that only a Kensai-kin can match.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Since we are comparing 1 bard vs 1 f/m, I don't think your bard song can x5. Btw, since it's 1 vs 1, I don't think your bard can sing and fight at the same time. What is offensive spin if it is compared with whirlwind or greater whirlwind?

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hardiness and the like will be settled by spells and items.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, since the f/m already have these abilities, he/she can use the spells and and items to make himself even more powerful or for other purposes.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Bard's Traps go against the inability to cast powerful Mage HLA's and spells. This is not enough - but both are equally effective as long as traps are applicable.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Since the f/m is watching the bard, I don't think the bard can set his trap.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The F/M, btw, should actually rest more than a Bard earlier (short of Irenicus Dungeon) because Bards can become very powerful very early thanks to his thieving skills. (steal the best items from merchants ASAP, go after the best items in the game immediately afterwards - justifiable Bard roleplay-wise)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If I'm not wrong, no matter how high the bard's pick picket is, there is still a chance of failure. So what if the bard fails? Reload time. So if the bard reload because of this till he succeed, I don't think this is role-play. Anyway, at the beginning, f/m will already have enough spells to protect himself, enough hp to take damages and he will level up pretty fast, as when he learn a new spell, all the exp will goes to him alone.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Backstab. Bahh... The Bard's greatest weakness against the F/M/T. This doesn't work everywhere though - only in the the non-boss or more general battles. The fact that the Bard can manage these too without the benefit of backstab is though is enough.
    If you want to be cheesy and use Backstab + Mislead then Bard will respond with Enhanced Bard Song X 20.
    Nobody wins though, since Backstab doesn't work against bosses and its plain stupid to have a Bard cast so many images for a non-boss battle.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not only bosses are hard. There are planty of enemy gangs which attack in groups. A well-placed back-stab will seriously wounded or end the life of their mage, which is a good start of the battle.

    Btw, talking about bard being able to cast high level spells from scrolls, since f/m can already use this spells without the scrolls, the f/m will be able to cast more spells(by memory and scrolls).

    @To all,
    I was thinking, a bard fights with a f/m(or maybe archer) ok?(anyone can help)
    the battle starts, f/m use gesen short bow and starts firing at bard. Since bard cannot cast any spells with so many arrows chasing him/her, what will he do?

    Or maybe, a wizard-slayer armed with a +6 two-handed weapon with (*****)in the weapon and (**) in two handed style, boots of speed, amulet of the Seldarine, rush to the bard just as he/she trys to cast the very first spell(I don't think any spells can be successfully casted).

    [ December 19, 2003, 09:05: Message edited by: Skywind ]
     
  11. Valer Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Skywind
    Let me defend the bard a little bit. In the ToB+BG2 meet of a bard and F/M both at level 40, is not likely. So the only good compare is who completes the game easier, practicaly fastern.

    @All
    I think the Bard is better than a F/M, especialy the Blade. The fact, it can choose from the thief like HLA makes the game easier. The traps are very usefull, there is less situation, where it can not be used.

    And the spike traps just dont care the MR! Ideal to kill liches for example. The use any item is the best HLA i have ever seen! Although i am playing F/M/T, this is very usefull.
     
  12. Shazamdude Gems: 5/31
    Latest gem: Andar


    Joined:
    May 5, 2003
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    1
    @Skywind:

    With regards to how the bard can IBS x5, Scythe was referring to the ability to cast mislead or an applicable duplicate creating spell X number of times, and having all of the duplicates singing.
     
  13. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,111
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    6
    @Valer
    Spells from levels 7-8 are very important since they include powerful summons and direct-offensive spells. (Not to mention the Sequencer/Trigger - tell me if I left anything out)
    These are very handy, but the F/M/T's levels are too low for them to really shine.
    A Bard can do more damage with one spell that the F/M/T could do. (Perhaps short of Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting with its piercing, area-damage properties)
    Bards don't need too much summons either.
    All the more important buffing spells are at levels 1-6, btw, so the Bard doesn't lose much gy losing levels 7-8 spells.
    That the F/M/T can cast more spells is compensated by the Bard's ability to cast more powerful spells. This is arguable enough since Bards also casts too few spells.

    But big bosses fails also - think of the assasination. I do at least 4 attack + haste, and all of them is multiplied with 5... That is about 500HP in a round.
    ------>
    No, not all bosses are vulnerable to backstab. And with the F/M/T's THAC0, 500HP per round is too idealistic. A Bard can do as much from an idealistic point of view also.

    I can choose from 3 class's HLA. That is a big advantage, and have 20 of it (you have 22).
    ------>
    F/M/T's cannot use HLA's unpatched.
    And, he can only have 2 pactehd, IIRC . (No, I'm not underminding classes here. But I've played an F/M/T before and that's what I got off me)
    Only his thieving side gets through the ToB mark.
    If this isn't true, please enlighten me.

    @Rastor
    No, F/M's cannot use Enchanced Bard Song, Pick Pockets, Steal, Use Any Item and Traps - which the Bard can use along with his own tactics.
    They're very different in this respect.
    And yes, Bards can use UAI to take advantage of those stat-draining weapons.
    These are very rare in the original game, but they're there nonetheless.
    But the reason why I only had them as optional was because the most effective of these is only +3. Maybe Soul Reaver(?), the THAC0-draining sword would work well since it's +4 - but Bards can only earn up to 4 attacks per round with it, albeit at very low THAC0 (against bosses, hard battles).

    but hes the only class that really obliterates blade
    ----->
    When you aren't powergaming, yes. Powergaming-wise, I see them as pretty much equals.

    There's a Tenser's Scroll and an Improved Haste scroll from a halfling merchant at the easternmost parts of Waukeen's Promenade who appears only at night, IIRC. Dualled with Belm, Celestial Fury is the best option IMO unless in certain specific cases. (And the Drinker would work here)
    Keep Arbane's Sword should you come by it. It will save you some trouble in the UnderDark.

    @Skywind
    And so it becomes another class battle.
    I've rather learned my lesson with one, and an F/M against a Bard will probably yield similar cases to the previous posts.
    I'll counter everything you say gameplay and roleplay-wise for the meanwhile.

    ??? what weapon in BG2 can give you so many attacks and is powerful at the same time? The only weapons with additional attacks that I found are weak +2 weapons. Come on, a +5 or +6 two-handed weapon will be hell-damages, if combine with a greater whirlwind.
    ----->
    Unless when under the powers of his own song, none. So images are a must (for all the hard battles anyway. All the non-boss/non-insane battles are trap-applicable)
    A Bard can conjure two up instantly with a Contingency and the Helm of Vhailor. He can use a Timestop from the Helm or from a timestop trap to cast many should he be caught off-guard.
    Where this isn't possible, it becomes a matter of buffing up or using something as bait to provide time for doing so.

    Since we are comparing 1 bard vs 1 f/m, I don't think your bard song can x5. Btw, since it's 1 vs 1, I don't think your bard can sing and fight at the same time. What is offensive spin if it is compared with whirlwind or greater whirlwind?
    ----->
    I have five images conjured by timestop + casting, items and Contingencies or some other means thus Enhanced Bard Song x 5, since these images can sing. The Bard can't fight and sing at the same time, so his images take care of this.
    Offensive can compare to the Greater Whirlwind, damage-wise save against a Kensai doing it with Kai.

    So, since the f/m already have these abilities, he/she can use the spells and and items to make himself even more powerful or for other purposes.
    ----->
    The Bard's UAI allows him to combine items and spells to gain nigh-invincibility (ie, very high resistances to all damage types combined with low THAC0 and the the inability to be targetted by spells).
    It remains to be a debate whether who among the two could be the toughest, and there isn't actually advantages too great on both sides.

    Since the f/m is watching the bard, I don't think the bard can set his trap.
    ---->
    That depends. In most battle situations traps can be used. I don't think an F/M will be able to keep an eye on the Bard for long - or any other mage-spell caster for that matter.
    In that case, its a matter of the battle area being ideal for traps or not.

    If I'm not wrong, no matter how high the bard's pick picket is, there is still a chance of failure. So what if the bard fails? Reload time. So if the bard reload because of this till he succeed, I don't think this is role-play.
    ----->
    It is roleplay. Gambling and taking chances are all part of roleplay, and are what spices it up.
    It's not about being too careful. This is especially true for rogues.
    There's only a good chance of failure at lower
    levels. Potions of Master Thievery take care of this.
    I've yet to see a thief-class with 200+ skill points in pickpockets fail at stealing.

    Not only bosses are hard. There are planty of enemy gangs which attack in groups. A well-placed back-stab will seriously wounded or end the life of their mage, which is a good start of the battle.
    ---->
    A Bard can also manage a similar battle as well, though with different tactics. The result will usually equally have both classes spent, however.

    Btw, talking about bard being able to cast high level spells from scrolls, since f/m can already use this spells without the scrolls, the f/m will be able to cast more spells(by memory and scrolls).
    ---->
    The F/M is the better spellcaster. I wasn't going against that. That the Bard has more powerful spells is something about how better each class can blend fighting and magic.

    @To all,
    I was thinking, a bard fights with a f/m(or maybe archer) ok?(anyone can help)
    the battle starts, f/m use gesen short bow and starts firing at bard. Since bard cannot cast any spells with so many arrows chasing him/her, what will he do?
    ----->
    Depends on the circumstances. He'll probably make himself scarce at once, going invisible and study things a bit for a while before acting.
    It's too broad a thing to be completely narrowed down.
    It the Bard decides to act at once, there's too many things he could do. Go figure.

    Or maybe, a wizard-slayer armed with a +6 two-handed weapon with (*****)in the weapon and (**) in two handed style, boots of speed, amulet of the Seldarine, rush to the bard just as he/she trys to cast the very first spell(I don't think any spells can be successfully casted).
    ----->
    Any Magekin would do what Bards would do at this point - disappear. Wizard Slayers aren't exactly the type of class you want to gamble against when you're a mage-kin.

    [ December 19, 2003, 10:54: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]
     
  14. Valer Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    0
    I worte a letter yesterday, but disappeared. I'll do it again.

    Let's see the differences beteween the Bard and F/M/T from the point of the bard:
    THAC0: -8 (-7 + weapon sepcialization difference)
    Damage: -2 (** weapon vs *)
    Attack: -3
    Spells: +2/-3/-2 (at the level of 6,7,8)
    Lore: +7/level
    Backstab: no
    AC: the same
    HLAs: +2
    Sawing throws:
    -6/-1/-4/-8/-1 fo the death/wands/poly/breath/spells

    Theese things are used the most of the time, and makes killing fastern. The difference in THAC0 is much, and we get -4 at backstab.

    The backstab means 70-100 damage or in case of undeads 35-50 with a good katana. But at critical it is doubled!!! So the average is realy high. And at assassination it dosent matter if the big boss can be backstabbed or not i think - i dont know, because i never needed that. ;) Face to face i always fought as a fighter, at a distant as a mage, but in the dark as a thief. :cool:

    The most of the spell's level also limited, mostly at 10-15, and if accidentaly not than that is a bug, because it's not like as it writen in the AD&D books. 40d10 damage would be killer... The faster caster wins!!!

    The HLAs realy need to be patched, but that is a bugfix. And planetars cant be selected for example. But that is very low price i think.

    Why i realy like the thiefs - my favorite is the assassin - that no need to rest a lot. But thiefs can't solve every problem easily. At high levels magic can be very useful. At low levels a powerful warrior is the best. That's why i prefer F/M/T. Good combination, and i think the best class in the game. Gets XP for learning spells and disarming traps too.

    But i accept, that the Bard is strong too, especialy the Blade as i think...
     
  15. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,111
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    6
    Those are pretty much it, raw. Like I said earlier, the Bard's far from being powerful without his spells and buffs.

    But Buff-wise, the Bard would outTHAC0, outAC, and would potentially outDamage the F/M/T.
    So the basic difference are Backstab and the F/M/T having more spells. (Except that having 2 more levels sixes and higher levels makes the Bard better at combining magic+combat)
    As for the HLA's, read on why the Bard can catch up to fighter + thief HLA's. The F/M/T can't use the more powerful Mage HLA's, so it isn't much of a factor to count - except that the F/M/T would make a better backup mage.

    Remember when I said the Blade has 12 rounds to dish out damage before his buffs diasppear? An F/M/T would need have to have 12 Assassination HLA's and 6 Whirlwind HLA's to catch up to that. 18 HLA's against what a Blade can do with 2, Enhanced Bard Song and Use Any Item. (Though UAI isn't necessarily a requirement)
    That leaves him with two remaining HLA's, and the Bard still has 20 left to focus on Lay Traps. (the other HLA's aren't as appealing)
    If the F/M/T tries to outtrap the Bard, he forfeits Assassination + Whirlwind.
    He also forfeits what Mage HLA's he can use, and others like Hardiness.

    But your reason for liking the F/M/T is justifiable. You could play a Blade similarly, but playing a Bard like that would be like using a Cleric as an offensive spellchucker.
     
  16. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nya nya nya, you gain hlas as soon as you hit the 3 mil exp mark. That means the F/M/T gets the MOST hlas of any character.
     
  17. Abomination Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    0
    I dunno strifestrike... what about the Fighter/Mage/Cleric? Nyaaaa!

    So much for letting this matter settle Scythesong. I'm certain everyone can agree that we each have our own way of playing and each view the classes from our playing perspective. Some class doesn't work well with our perspective - therefore - it is not (according to us) a good class.

    I find one concept of the bard hard to swallow is all the work that is required to make him do the things you say Scythesong. To make him a strong melee fighter you have to go through a fair number of processes, spells and abilities. Some of us prefer to just give a fighter a sword, armor and send him in and watch him perform as he should. Same applies for mages, screw preparation, take the sorcerer and kill things at a whim.
     
  18. Strifestrike Gems: 7/31
    Latest gem: Tchazar


    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thief levels far more than cleric, so yes the f/m/t is the class with the most hlas, all joking aside.
     
  19. Laches Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    You know, I'm not sure anyone really responded to this, I may've just missed it. If it is true though - I'd say the bard is in big trouble in any type of 'reasonable' duel (using my own standard of reasonableness since that's what I like; so there):

    If this is true - a bard will typically lose vs a sorcerer or a mage - barring trying to stack things in such a way that the bard will win because you want the bard to win.

    @ Manus - I think a monk's chances against a high level mage/sorcerer is somwhere between slim to none. One timestop and the monk dies (there'd be a lead up - but that'd be the end result). Your monk can't kill the magic user before s/he gets that spell off - (the high saves at high levels really leaves the monk in trouble).

    It's just the way it is for any melee only class vs. high level wizards in the BG2 series. And from a roleplaying standpoint - this makes sense. Sorcs/wizards at extreme levels are supposed to be able to city blocks from miles away from what I've read elsewhere but that is rather difficult to implement I guess. ;)
     
  20. Scythesong Immortal Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,111
    Media:
    10
    Likes Received:
    6
    Nya nya nya, you gain hlas as soon as you hit the 3 mil exp mark. That means the F/M/T gets the MOST hlas of any character.
    -------->
    No. Bards and Single-class thieves outnumber his HLA's. He is the only class with access to mage, fighting and thievery HLA's you mean.

    So much for letting this matter settle Scythesong.
    -------->
    Nothing better to do, I guess. :D

    A bard only needs to prepare that much when he needs to be at his best. Short of soloing mods and boss battles and going on insane difficulty, this isn't necessary.

    At the very least all he needs Tenser's Transformation or Improved Haste and he's ready to go. In fact, a Blade Bard can go a long way with only his spins, which is already very deadly in conjunction with Tenser's.
    I wasn't comparing the Blade to single-class warriors and mages - warriors don't need to buff because they don't have buffs in the first place, and Mages have no better thing to do than fling spells all day.

    I was comparing the Bard to a (soloed) Mage, F/M or F/M/T, since they are more closely associated.

    If the F/M/T has that many HLA's then it means he's a better fighter than I thought.
    But now looking the F/M/T has an F/M with backstab (and assassination), the Bard can be just as good for the price of just two HLA's and spells. In the long run, he can even be better - but I'll credit the F/M/T with the potential to be able to do the most damage in such a short span.

    How many times must I explain the potency of SI:Divination + Invisibility?
    This, and the fact that the Bard can potentially force a Mage into melee - the mage's only real weakness?
    The traps are there as pressure - and there are actually many ways for the Mage to be able to get around this.

    When the traps are gone, the matter of the mage being able to actually do something to the Bard applies. The result is that both classes gain advantages against each other - and the real question would be who would act first and risk it. You could put all the tactics in the world here and yet there would be counters for each one.

    The only time the Bard would lose his advantage was when both classes are forced to fight without any items at all - as Abomination suggested.

    [ December 21, 2003, 09:07: Message edited by: Scythesong Immortal ]
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.