A Little More Tolerance, Please

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I originally posted this in the BG2:SoA forum as a response to a pretty enlightened comment by Stu, but I felt it was an important enough issue to have its own topic. I'll repeat my original post basically word-for-word. I'm not sure if I'm breaking any Forum rules by doing this (cross-posting, for example), but quite frankly, in this particular case, I don't really care, so I'll willingly take any lumps that may be coming to me. My (and Stu's) post was regarding comments that appear on these Boards from time to time that are demeaning towards people with different sexual orientation. Obviously, not everyone is guilty here; this is directed at a relatively small minority. My post:

The forum rules state:

quote:
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No attacks, insults, or flames - be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background or whatever.
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I assume that the “whatever” part would extend to sexual orientation as well. I would be willing to bet that there are a number of SP members who are homosexual (just based on statistical probabilities), so these types of comments are hurtful to them, and are offensive to a number of us who are not homosexual.

I think that, in this day and age, we should be a little more tolerant of people whose sexual orientation is different from the rest of us. In Canada, gays and lesbians just very recently won the right to legally get married, so to me, attitudes that we sometimes see on these Boards seem a bit outdated and juvenile.

[ June 27, 2003, 16:44: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

This'll probably get moved to SS.

This is news to me, for the most part. Without naming names, can you repeat some of the things you took offense to? And post a link to the thread you and Stu are referring to?

One problem I can see here is the fact that this forum is about giving us all a voice. Whether or not we agree with each other, we all have the right to say more or less what we want, within the forum rules of course. This is treated a bit more loosely here in the Alley, but the same still applies. Right or wrong, it is someone's opinion and is generally allowed. While I agree with you, I don't see it happening. Especially since usually the mods jump all over someone when their comments get too out of hand (which is much appreciated).

As far as attitudes here being outdated and juvenile, try to remember (as I'm sure you do) that we have a very international crowd here. Attitudes on various issues tend to differ greatly from continent to continent. I admit that fairly often the attitudes considered to be outdated and juvenile often originate from my particular country. But I've always seen the Alley as a perfect opportunity to sway others to your point of view. That's certainly happened more than a few times with me. Rather than asking people not to say juvenile things, perhaps the answer is to challenge their view and show them the error in their thinking. That's what the Alley is all about.

 

Death Rabbit, the particular thread was here. (I've seen these types of comments in other threads as well, but I'm not going to try to find them right now.) There are repeated flippant and derogatory comments about some NPC's being gay. These were not presented in a constructive manner; rather, they can easily be interpreted that the NPC should be ignored at least in part simply because they are considered to be gay. Now I realise that we are only talking about NPC's here, but these types of comments are a reflection of real-world attitudes as well.

I agree, as long as it's done in a constructive and non-hurtful manner (which is probably why I should have originally provided the link you requested so that you could see where I was coming from).

As for as moving this topic to Sundries, I put it here because it is more of a serious mater that extends beyond SP. But then again, I don't exactly have the best track record for choosing which forum to post on.

 

A different sexual orientation is okay, discriminating gays is is no longer a fashion of this day and age.

There are limits though, if someone openly announces his lust for humping a sheep or any other animal, or if he shares his feelings about his sexual desires for little boys, then don't expect any friendly words from me. People like that are just sick. And they ARE outthere.

 

Pacman, this is not the issue.

Some people here (and on other boards) are using the term 'gay' as an insult.
While I am against that overboarding political correctness stuff, I must say that this particular 'thing' is really stupid. I guess, these people aren't using their brains too much.

[ June 29, 2003, 12:52: Message edited by: Fabius Maximus ]

 

People are often stupid and insensitive. Being offended by what someone writes or says means you care about what this person thinks. For the most part, I don't believe you really do care about that. If someone says something stupid or insensitive, ignore them. You choose how much power you grant to others.

 

I second that. Why do you care what anyone else thinks about your sexual orientation? Some people think dancing and playing cards is immoral, others that pork-eating is a sin, and you don't see Pork Pride parades and outrage. If someone is advocating violence towards homosexuals or any other group, then obviously that's not appropriate and should be addressed by the law, but if people are just confessing to a weird phobia of homosexuals or sharing their own peculiar beliefs about sin, let them. They're only making fools of themselves, not you.

 

A. "Political Correctness". There seems to be a problem with that, which I do not get. So, I think, there is something I do not know, because this word always comes up and is used in a way I don't think I understand really. I always thought/think from my expirience that "political correctness" is there to protect minorities, mainly christians which spread there believes, because where I come from, they usually get told, wo dä bartli dä moscht hold. Which would be against the forum rules here.

B. Another thing is this "gay". I figured that it's obviously a common swear word in English. And very often used. In this case by a Swede, but mainly be English-mother-tongue speakers.

This is the only explanation for a swear-word. Which would mean, that this is a fashion in English-speaking countries.

As for cultural differences, I see, that most swear words out of my languages would not make sense for others. Translated in English, they would even get the swear-word-meaning, because it's from a different cultural background. Funny. (Oops, not that I use them here, but in Battle Net). Like "where Bart is getting the applewine from".

[ June 27, 2003, 18:59: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

I agree with everyone who says that homosexuals shouldn’t care about what other people think, but the reality is that there is a certain stigma attached to being gay which insulting comments often help to legitimise. When these comments arise, some homosexuals may be able to shrug it off, but others will feel the need to go deeper into the closet.

P.S. - whether the term “gay” is meant as an insult or not depends on the context in which it is used. You can usually tell whether someone is using in a disparaging way or just a non-judgemental statement of fact.

 

The term "queer" used to denote strangeness, something that wasn't quite normal. It became something else over time. On the other hand the term "gay" used to denote frivolity or happiness. Due to both terms being used in a way to classify homosexuals, their original meanings have become almost irrelevant and now we are hearing the term "gay" used where perhaps the word "queer" (with its original meaning) might better suit.

In any case, its just a word and no matter how words are used or who uses them, words themselves are only as harmful to us as we allow them to be. If a person pokes you with a sharp stick, he causes you real harm. If a person pokes you with a sharp word, he doesn't cause you any harm at all. Such empowerments are up to you to grant or deny.

 

You can also look at it a little more lighthearted. Gay people have always been an easy target when it comes to jokes. Has anyone ever seen Eddie Murphy's stand up shows "Raw" and "Delirious" ? If you have you know what i mean. He really takes a bite out of the homosexuals in those two shows. Should that be a reason to get mad ? I think not.

Even some gay people i know slapped themselves silly from laughter after watching the shows. He also targets Arabs, Italians, and a lot of individuals. If you'd take offence on all that, you need to get a hobby or something.

 

Although I have no quarrel with the political correctness (or lack thereof) with the word "gay" as an insult, I do find it to be immature, on the same level of just pointing fingers and name-calling. Besides, people do have a reason to be offended; if they aren't homosexual, then a loved one or a friend might be. That's just my take on it.

 

You don't have to know someone like that to be offended (or at least intensely annoyed) by comments like that. I take offense when people use the word "gay" in place of something like "dumb" or "lame." It's equally abhorant when people say things like "jewish." I've seen and heard people say things like "Don't buy that game - it's gay!" or "Oh, man that's so jewish - I hate it."

Absolute stupidity. Neither apply to me, yet the very idea that people find that kind of talk acceptable is just ridiculous to me. Some people consider cursing to be a "sign of a weak mind." Nothing IMO says weak mind better than someone who refers to something they don't like as "gay," "jewish," "muslim," or whatever. Find something better to say or just shut your piehole.

My 2 cents.

 

I can't help but think that people who preach "Tolerance" should be just a little bit more tolerant of people who do not agree with them.

 

@ Great Snook

If that was directed at me, would you care to elaborate? I won't rebut if that was just a general comment for the group.

 

Just a general comment. In my experience people that are too passionate about "Their group" tend to steamroll the opinions of others.

 

I have no problem tolerating disagreement, but I draw the line at allowing someone else to tell me that I'm wrong because I don't live my life according to their beliefs.

However, I think that maybe "thoughfulness" would be a better word choice than "tolerance." It could be that the author of the offending posts didn't intend to be homophobic but just didn't think about what s/he was saying.

 

@ The Great Snook:
Do you mean to say that we should be tolerant of bigots? Because I’m sorry, but if you think that it’s OK to go around throwing insults at people just because of their sexual orientation (or race, colour, ethnicity, religion, or whatever), then that's just pathetic.

 

The main reason people use words such as "gay" is for the stereotype of what gay people are like. Note, not what gay people are like in reality, just the stereotype.

I myself might refer to some black guy as a "nigger" (hope you don't view the mere mention of that word as offensive) simply for the stereotype of a huge and ominous big black man (more of an insider, but I expect you to understand). Yet I have a black friend, and I'm not the least bit racist there.

I also have a gay friend. I'd heard some rumours of this friend of mine over the last few years, but the first time I met him for some 5-6 years was just last weekend. Sure, he was gay, but aside from one minor obtrusive comment which I promptly notified him of , he hadn't changed a bit. I still consider him my friend, of course.

This was all said just to point out that even though I'm not the most tolerant person on this planet, I do have some of it in me. The gay -comments that are seen in that link of yours are minor, hardly offensive. As harsh as it may sound, all they really do is give a vague description of what type of a person is in question. The stereotype of "gay" afterall, *can* be associated with "sissy", "un-masculine", or "overly sentimental" in either physical, social or psychological sense. Now admittedly some of these comments are borderline cases, but there's a significant difference between just describing something with half-humouristic references as "gayish", and actually deliberately attacking against such a minority by directing insults directly against them.

It's a hard case, as it always is. In the end, sexual orientation can be counted as the same as any other feature including a person's weight, skincolour, looks, way of speech, possible disabilities, etc. And while your cause is understood, I don't think anyone wants sorcerer's to change into the type of place where when someone refers to an npc as "retarded moron", he's banned for directing insults against all mentally disabled people on the planet. In my opinion, sorcerer's has not as of yet been guilty of allowing truly insulting comments about homosexuals. Discussions have been initiated, of course, but hey have remained quite civil, at most allowing the occational "not-so-subtle" opinion. As it should be.

Just don't look for offensive comments on purpose, lest you'll find them where there may really be none.

 

@ Splunge

Yes.

Why shouldn't you be tolerant of a bigot. From your posts it appears that you are a homosexual. Well if you know someone who is a homophobe, you should leave that person alone. If they are seeking you out then you have may have other recourses. Here in the U.S. you could file an assault charge and get a restraining order if it was the that bad, or if it was a work related issue you could file a complaint against your employer.

I believe it is wrong for someone to try to force someone to like them. In my state we always have a problem with a group called "Queer Nation." What they like to do is dress up and go to public transportation stops and scream "We're Queer, We're here, get used to it" in innocent commuters faces. This invariably scares some people, enrages others, and annoys the rest. I'm assuming the majority of the commuters would have been perfectly content for the protestors to be "Queer" someone else and to leave them alone.