1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

A European's thoughts on world opinion

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Malaqai, Apr 30, 2003.

  1. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, I would like to congratulate the guy who wrote the essay "An American's thoughts on world opinion". It was great, but there were some things left unsaid. First, the part about the US economy. It is predicted (by the World Trade Organization) that by the year 2015 Japan will have, by far, the richest economy in the world. For the past 10 years Japan has had the largest economic growth. It's industry is expanding rapidly. Second, the economy of the UK is not in the top 4 economies in the world. The USA, Japan, Germany and France are the richest countries in the world. In the year 1998 (the most recent info I could find) the US economy made the following profit: 7 000 billion US dollars. Japan made just a bit under 5000 billion US dollars. 2 700 billion US dollars and France made 2 000 billion US dollars. 5 000+2 700 + 2 000 is not less than 7 000. So, your statement that the US makes more money than the next 3 richest countries is wrong. The part where you talked about the millitary budget. You must take into consideration that the U.S. is at war and Germany is not. Neither is Russia. So isn't it logical that a country in peace doesn't spend countless billions on it's army? As a European (I live in Zagreb, Croatia) I would like to tell you a couple of reasons why anti-americanism is spreading so fast across the world. First, the US is the richest country in the world. That is not the reason. An average citizen of the US makes 30 000 dollars/year. So does an average German, and a man living in France or Japan. The Japanese make even more. Do they have anything to be worked-up about. I think not-they are pretty rich themselves. So why would a Frenchmen be so opposed to war and the U.S. led policy of the "WORLD policeman". This is why- France has a history going back more than a thousand years. A lot more. It has seen it's share of war. And it knows better than anyone that no one goes to war to "free" anybody. You go to war either to conquer or to pillage or to exploit. That is the truth. Julius Caesar said that if a leader of a nation keeps that country at war, keeps the war-drums beating, keeps the eyes of the people looking outwards- he can do whatever he wants back home.
    Many Americans are in an anti-France mood these days. And yet they take pride in the statue of liberty which was given to them by France. If France didn't want it at the time, the US would never have gotten free. Do you really think that the British empire (the largest force in the world at the time)would have allowed a rabble of patriotic self-proclaimed Americans to get free and stop paying taxes? I think not. But the US chooses to forget that at the time. Think about, for just one second, that the USSR is still alive and kicking today. Do you think that the US would have dared to contradict the UN security council? I think not. The problem that is revealed now is very simple. There are billions of people against the US today. Why? A Russian guy I recently met told me a very simle answer to the sam question: Who or what is the cause of anti-Americanism? He said:"Americans." For a nation that prides itself as a great democracy it seems a pretty humiliating thing that a presidential candidate who won more votes lost the ellection. It is also humiliating that if you type idiot bush in the yahoo search engine, more than 150 000 pages will pop up. More than half of them are American. I think that the Us and Europe should have close ties. But they are slipping away. And I very much doubt that it is in the interest of the US to bring Europe and Russia together. But they are doing just that. Never in the history of man have Russia, France and Germany shared the sam views. They do now. And that is a foundation stone to build upon. A country WILL emerge in the next fifty years or so. It's name? Europe.

    [For heaven's sake, PLEASE use paragraphs in such long posts...] -Tal

    [ April 30, 2003, 12:41: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  2. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar


    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are right on the fact that USA has not the healthy and thriving economy their administrations claim to have. And really Europe is a rising economical power. But you are forgetting that USA is on the other side of the Antlantic and the ethics as well as the lifestyle and generally everything that affects their way of thinking is so different that i could say that the chasm is chaotic.
    Things you consider humiliating they see as normal and things we see as ok they see them as outrageous. And don't forget that USA is going through puberty right now and the reactions we see is due to that. A youngster rich and powerfull thinking he knows pretty much everything and willing to reshape the world.
    In same cases he might be right but in most cases can't fully understand the conditions and therefore falls to mistakes.
    The simple people of USA are mostly ok (sometimes with a little attitude) and i believe they really try to understand what is going on outside their country. Although they feel personally attacked every time they hear something bad for their country but they love her so they are justified.
    The real problem are the Americans in control and especially Bush because he is not competent for these responsibilities and i trully believe that he won the elections due to his family name and nothing more.
     
  3. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2000
    Messages:
    4,257
    Media:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] If anything, I've always noticed that we Americans are an optimistic bunch...Much more so than in any other country I've visited. It's the "can do" attitude that is our strength, and a source of annoyance to the rest of the world. Mostly because I believe it's perceived as arrogance, rather than confidence.

    I think in all things we try to do what's right, at least that is always my hope. But I think that most Americans believe it is better to try something and fail, rather then do nothing and hope for the best. Presidents come and go, so don't judge us on this one guy...Believe me, I have issues with him too!

    As for the world thing...Japan is strong economically because they do not need to spend gazillions of dollars on a military budget. They have a small defense force, and the backing of the US military.

    Overall, I see the EU as a good thing. The biggest hurdle will be to overcome nationalism. The United States works for us for one simple reason...We're from everywhere! People come here from all over the world to avoid religious and political persecution, or just for the opportunity to reach for that golden ring. American history is not just the history of our short lived nation, it is the history of all nations. Although few may still see it this way, this truly is why the US is successful.

    If the EU is going to prosper, it will have to rise above the history of its individual nations. Not an easy task. Russia will even be tougher. They have always had a heavy handed ruler, be it Czar or Soviet, the Russian people love strong leadership. That's why they're having so much trouble now. Lack of strong, decisive leadership. That national psyche will probably keep the Russians out of any European Union.

    I think you're right about Asia. They are the next economic powerhouse. They have the resources and manpower to be successful, and even the leadership in China has a flexible approach to Marxism and Capitalism...The mixture could pay off!

    [ April 30, 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: Sir Belisarius ]
     
  4. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just want to point out that if Bill Clinton was still in office, 9/11 never would have happened. But the problem that the world today faces isn't Bush. Or Saddam. It isn't even terrorism. It's prejudice. The fact that most Americans now picture Muslims as terrorist is just insane. I now a pretty big number of muslims, and I can tell you that they are the nicest, most polite people I have ever met. Heck, right now this muslim girl sent me an ICQ message. And guess what. No viruses were attached to the message. I heard about a couple of thousands Americans buying gallons of French wine and spilling it into the ocean. Why would anybody do that?
    I really don't see why the answer to all the worlds' trouble eludes humanity because it's a very simple answer. Peace. Dialogue. And vengeful justice.
     
  5. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,607
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    Why would 9/11 have been avoided if Clinton were in office (which, by the way, is impossible under our Constitution as he served his two terms)?
     
  6. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    dmc, I know that your constitution makes it impossible.I just think that Bill Clinton is a clear-headed person who made your economy powerful. Bush is doing just the oposite. Don't tell me that you think that Afghanistan/Iraq happened because Bush wanted to "free" the oppressed Iraqi people. no. It happened because Iraq is rich in oil, and Afghanistan is/was a safehouse of sorts for terrorist.
     
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,362
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    226
    Gender:
    Male
    That is easily disputed because there was a less successful (in terms of damage and deaths) bombing of the WTC in 1993; shortly after Clinton was in office.
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,607
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    I think entirely too much credit is given to presidents of this country for a good economy, just as too much blame is given when the economy turns south. I also think we've bandied that particular topic to death earlier and elsewhere in this forum and I don't feel like resurrecting it.

    BTA - my point exactly. I had to run into a meeting before I could type my next paragraph about the earlier bombing of the twin towers, so thank you for the post.
     
  9. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well BTA and dmc, you got me convinced about Clinton. I give you credit for that, my mind is not easily swayed. But try to understand that I didn't mean to say that 9/11 wouldn't have happened. I said that all of the things fueled by 9/11 (Iraq, Afghanistan...) never would have happened. Clinton strikes me as a calm, rational man.
     
  10. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    The September 11 attack was probably planned years before it actually happened. Remember they had to train these guys how to fly ?

    So your theory that it wouldn't have happened if Clinton was still in office, doesn't hold any water. Those "friendly and polite" muslims were gonna do this no matter what. This has nothing to do with Bush or anyone else. This is about a bunch of radical muslims who don't like the western way of life.
     
  11. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the reason why Americans are the target of terrorists is that their administrations usally don't care for their lives. In other words, American administrations take risks and are aware of the fact, that somewhere on this planet an American, a soft target, has to pay with his life. Well, for their administration it's a price worth to pay.

    The concept in very very simple words.: Every time a country is bombed, there's a risk that someone dies in a terrorist attack 2-4 years later.

    The problem is, that many Americans (especally their president, but does he really think so ?) fancy a very weird and foolish explanation. Freedom is the reason. But every child knows, that the land of Freedom is the Netherlands. If someone would kill people because he didn't like their freedom, he would concentrate on the Dutch.

    [ May 01, 2003, 14:40: Message edited by: Yago ]
     
  12. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    Okay, what's the subtitle behind this brilliant remark ? :D
     
  13. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    25
    So your topic isn't really "A Europeans thoughts on world opinion", it's "A Europeans thoughts on Laches thoughts of world opinion".

    In other words, another, let's bash America thread.
    Well come on in! You are a breath of fresh air! We haven't had one of these in about 15 seconds!

    You state:
    Let's consider this line in particular:

    You seem confused. In once sentence, you refer to France as a country ("it") and as a person ("anyone").

    France has a history of more than a thousand years, not individual french people. This is relevant in terms of developing a culture. It is not relevant when dealing with individuals.
    Do you really believe that Chirac is carrying some kind of anti-war knowledge that has accumulated in his DNA for the last 1000 years? It would explain why France folds at the first sign of aggression, but I doubt that it is true.

    While it might be entertaining to take apart your little rant one piece at a time, I don't see the point. You are just another in the long line of America bashers to grace these boards. You have nothing new to add.

    But don't let me slow you down! Make yourself at home, spew rhetoric, and have a good time doing it!
     
  14. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't understand that. But I think it means, is there some hidden meaning ? no.
    If the goal of Arab terrorits would be to kill people, because they're free, they would do that, wouldn't they ? So, your country and other European countries would be on top of their list, wouldn't they ?.

    Ok, Mr. Jack Funk. Like all those Europhobics on this board, you have nothing new to add. I will ignore you're Europhobia and just want some minimal accuracy. As you know so much about history, it would be very easy for you, to show me that the USA has ever waged a war, bigger then the one France waged against Germany 1914-1918. Show me a war, in which American soldiers took ever the same burden as the French soldiers did. Show me a war, in which as many American Soldiers died, as Germans and French in WW1. Show me !
     
  15. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,607
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    375
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not sure that I understand this. Are we rating wars on how many people we lose? I always thought the idea was to lose as few as possible while achieving all of your goals. :hmm:
     
  16. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    25
    Oooh. Yago is mad at me! Europhobic am I? My mother is from Ireland (off the boat, literally) and my fathers mother was FRENCH. So spare me the Europhobe nonsense. If that's all you've got, I won't waste my time responding to anymore of your posts.

    My comment about France was a joke. You're not that thick, are you? Would you like me to add "j/k" next to it for you?

    You're comment about WW1. If the French were better at conducting wars, they wouldn't have had so many losses. If the Germans didn't want to lose so many, they shouldn't have started it. But what does this have to do with the topic?
     
  17. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,392
    Likes Received:
    45
    Actually I think it's wrong to say that the Germans started WW2. If someone started it it was either Yugoslavia or Austria-Hungary.
     
  18. Jack Funk Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    25
    Yes, the origin of WW1 is very complex, but did Germany invade France or the other way around?

    I apologize for my oversimplification, but stand by the sentiment.

    I still don't see how losing a lot of soldiers in a war has anything to do with "A European's thoughts on world opinion". At least not how it was presented by Yago.
     
  19. Malaqai Gems: 4/31
    Latest gem: Sunstone


    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2003
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really do respect what all of you have to say, but I stand behind my claim. There really was no reason for the US to invade Iraq. The excuse to invade iraq were the "weapons of mass destruction". None of those were found so far. And I very much doubt any of the "weapons of mass destruction" even exist in Iraq. So....the US attacks a country using an excuse that has no truth behind it. WHAT I MEAN IS THAT BILL CLINTON NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE IDEA TO ATTACK IRAQ. Why would he? Iraq didn't mean to attack the States. Iraq didn't say one hostile word against the US. Not until Bush and Blair started gathering allies for their war.


    And another thing. About the French DNA. I didn't mean it like that. I mean that the ways of viewing the world are very different in Europe and the US. And while most US citizens renounce their true heritage, we in Europe do not. We take pride from our achievments, and we learn from our mistakes. And there were many. So Chirac doesn't have pacifist genes. But he knows how to open a goddams book. And read...

    [ May 01, 2003, 23:03: Message edited by: Malaqai ]
     
  20. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    He, he, I just thought about it. Everytime I say something, ooops, someone comes:" oh my gosh, an american basher, an american basher, an american basher." So I figured I answer from now on everytime with "oh my gosh, an euoro basher, an euro-basher, an euro-basher". You had the luck to be the first.

    If I remember right, as the Americans came (3 and a half years, dam that pond is giantic), their brilliant military genius developed new unheard of tactics and strategies..... ahm ...... go in the same trench as anyone else ?????

    :doh: :doh: :doh: That's the brilliant tactic. Wait around sitting on their butts till the Europeans have killed eachother and then come and say:" We've won, we've won, we've won".

    Was pretty tight in WW2. OH, OH, OH, the russians have won the war. Fast, fast, fast, we must land in France and get to Berlin before the Russians reach it. Too late. Bad luck.

    Well, that's fair enough. And it's fair enough that Europeans now sit on their butts and watch how the Americans try to wage wars. Americans can't be foolish enough to think screaming "Nibelungentreue, Nibelungentreue" would be enough to get Europeans on any foolish adventure, are they ?

    A story of 3 Kids: A, F and GB

    A :" I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree"
    GB :" ... ahm .... I go try and help him, he may hurt himself".
    F:" that's a stupid idea"

    [ May 01, 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: Yago ]
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.