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A Car that runs on Salt Water?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Beren, Apr 1, 2015.

  1. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hmmmmm:

    http://themindunleashed.org/2014/09/move-tesla-new-car-powered-salt-water-900-horsepower.html

    Interesting to say the least. I sort of get the science of it on a general level. You need salt water with different mineral compositions that are partitioned apart, similar in concept to an alkaline battery.

    Also, it doesn't run entirely on the electrolyte reaction either. It needs a spark from a battery to get the process going. But that's true of gasoline-fueled cars as well.

    What isn't clear to me, reading from either the proponents or the skeptics, is how much energy has to go into it to get the process started? If it results in more energy released than it takes to spark it, maybe we've found a holy grail. Maybe ...

    And I'm surprised nobody's asked this yet. If the technology takes off, have we turned the oceans into another finite fuel source? Will we simply invite another kind of environmental devastation if we "mine" the oceans for its water?
     
  2. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    Water has always been our most precious resource. Also, I don't think we could ever run out of ocean, unless we start expanding into space. Then all bets are off.

    Then again, there's plenty of water on other planets, so if we get to that point, we'll probably drain those instead.
     
  3. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I'm not sure what you mean here. Flow cells are nothing new (though something small enough to fit in a car is interesting), but they are not combusting anything with a spark... They may need a battery or capacitor to get things started if the liquids are fed through the cell by pumps.

    No. It's just like a battery. It takes energy to charge the cell. It's an energy storage device; it does not create energy, so it's no different environmentally than a battery powered car, or a fuel cell powered car for that matter, other than perhaps in efficiency (though I don't know if it's better or worse).

    You will not be mining for water, nor ocean water. The "salt" water is not ocean water, so they're being a little misleading with that. And you are not consuming water when discharging the cell; you are simply converting chemical potential energy to electrical energy in a reversible manner (i.e. if you put electrical energy back into the cell, you build chemical potential energy). You know, like a rechargeable battery.
     
  4. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    AFAIK there's a lot technology floating around that could potentially replace fossil fuel consumption, people just don't bother to develop it for whatever reason. Or if they do, then it's under the very watchful eye of sponsors like the big gas companies.
     
  5. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    If we could easily replace fossil fuels, oil companies would start suffering massive losses, so I'm quite certain they're doing everything in their power to stall the development of alternative fuels. Most of the research is probably done with far fewer funds than one would realistically expect.

    Not that I'm big on conspiracy theories, it just seems like the obvious business strategy.
     
  6. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    Agreed Keneth. The governor here in WI (friendly to fossil fuel companies) is trying to cut funding for research into alternative fuels.

    If the car runs on what could be ocean water I don't see too much trouble (especially near coastal areas). If it runs on drinkable water then I see a problem.

    If it works as presented then great.
     
  7. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    Anything to get us off fossil fuels at this point. I will take a car that runs on flower power and positive thinking.
     
  8. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    I'd never get anywhere with that...
     
  9. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Ich dien ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Even the Flintstones can do that so yes we can :D
     
  10. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    As I said above a flow cell will not enable less use of fossil fuels (except perhaps via efficiency); all it is is an energy storage device. You have to get that energy from somewhere, and currently fossil fuels are the cheapest method. Sure you could use some other energy source like wind, solar or nuclear, but the use of a flow cell will not change the source of energy production by itself.
     
  11. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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  12. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    A bit more technical, I would also argue.

    The marketing speak used in the first link suggests basically a different type of battery than normal. I'm fairly allergic to marketing speak, so I didn't read too carefully.

    The second link is more useful and it sounds like these claims probably are too good to be true, or at least should be specified more accurately in order to be of any worth.

    Anyway, none of this is a replacement for fossil fuels. An electric car doesn't use fossil fuels directly, but most electricity is still generated by fossil fuels (coal, mostly). It could theoretically be more efficient, as typically an electicity plant will be more efficient in converting fuel to a usable form of energy (electricity) than a car, but a car converts the chemical energy directly to mechanical energy, whereas an electric car would have several more steps in between the conversion of chemical energy to mechanical energy, which will reduce the total efficiency of the complete conversion.

    I suppose the real sustainability of electric cars would be in the fact that it's possible to generate the electricity from other sources as well, such as wind, solar or hydro energy. Though the sustainability of creating wind farms and solar panels is more dubious.

    Those saying that we should move from fossil fuels to other sources are right, and I fear that our children may be in for a cold shower when liquid fossil fuels become rarer and rarer so that cars become less and less viable as a form of personal transport.

    Anyway, coming back to these batteries, if it would have about the same energy density as a typical Li-ion battery, and the metals used as electrolyte aren't too rare, it could definitely be worth it. Mostly because Lithium is fairly limited in quantity (and most of it is mined in China), so an alternative could definitely be useful to have, if only not to be too dependent on a single material/source.
     
  13. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    A Car that runs on Salt Water?

    For me, the salt water isn't the interesting part. It's the fact that the car is going to be running. Every car I've ever seen rolls on wheels. Replacing those with some sort of feet is going to be bizarre!

    Alternatively, wow, I thought only Jesus could do that. And he only walked.

    I'm here all week.
     
    Merlanni and Blackthorne TA like this.
  14. Keneth Gems: 29/31
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    Do you do birthday parties?
     
  15. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Oh look I'm playing Pillars of Eternity. WOW this game is so amazing...
     
  16. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Stick to the topic please...
     
  17. damedog Gems: 15/31
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  18. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Nonsense. Those kinds of studies/models are such BS. The guy even admits it (not in so many words of course):
    What about the "social and environmental" costs of wind farms that slaughter birds and blight the landscape, or solar facilities like Ivanpah that do the same to birds and insects, and also blinds (well probably "dazzles" is more accurate) pilots that fly past?
     
  19. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    Surely you realize the social and environmental costs of fossil fuels are worse and manifest in more ways. Throwing stones in glass houses and all that.

    Here's another B.S source that does puts the issue in a different perspective. I've never seen anything that puts wind turbines in the ranks of the real problematic bird killers, but of course i'm open to it if you have it.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/08/22/pecking-order-energys-toll-on-birds

    Solar: Anywhere from about 1,000 birds a year, according to BrightSource, to 28,000 birds a year, according to an expert at the Center for Biological Diversity.

    Wind: Between 140,000 and 328,000 birds a year in the contiguous United States, according to a December 2013 study published in the journal Biological Conservation. Taller turbines tend to take out more birds.

    Oil and Gas: An estimated 500,000 to 1 million birds a year are killed in oil fields, the Bureau of Land Management said in a December 2012 memo.

    Also another, different source saying basically the same thing: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421509001074


    Obviously, the researcher you quoted from my source is right, that there are a ton of variables and having an accurate count of all of them is very difficult. By no means am I saying I hold the final answer. Only that from what i've seen, it's pretty well accepted fossil fuels are way worse in all regards mentioned and by a very wide margin.
     
  20. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Basically what I'm saying is studies like that are advocacy and nothing else. They start with a problem: "the fossil fuel guys have a point in that they're cheaper than these nascent renewables; what can we do about that?" And the answer is: "Let's publish a study showing that the social costs are sooo much higher!" And they come up with a study with dubious calculations that they admit are not really calculable. And of course they don't look in to the "other" costs of the things they are advocating.

    If you don't like the few additional costs I listed above, there are plenty more for renewables. Like the fact that they are intermittent causes many problems for the electrical grid and requires plants with on-demand power generation like fossil fuels (or nuclear) to back them up.
     
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