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Bottomless Bag...

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale 2' started by Searcher, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    As I said, I have only described isolated scenarios and many battles do not work out that way. In my case, melee also happens to be last resort -- after disabling spells have failed. I personally do not like to 'pull' monsters in trickles, otherwise pulling melee enemies away from ranged ones is yet another option (where the map is big enough) and your own ranged weapons are useful for this (shoot, back up, repeat).

    I also use 'disabling' in a very broad sense. It could be blinding, paralyzing, confusing, outright killing (a-la finger of death), etc. In areas where archers are hard to reach, summoning something right next to them works just like a melee tank. Sure, there will be 5-6 archers around, but if you can keep 2-3 'busy' for a couple of rounds, that's enough for one of my tanks to reach them. So for me, summoning is also a disabling tactic.
    One could also send a summon ahead of the party, but it would need to be a very sturdy summon to last long enough to give you time to set the rest of the battle up. I don't use this tactic though -- for me it's only what I've seen others do.

    Yes and no. She was female, but not of any coven that I know of. Whenever I create a mage, I think of Imoen so all my mages end up being female wearing happy pink garments. :)
     
  2. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    It was a joke, the Sisters of Battle are also known informally as the "Bolter Bitches".
     
  3. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    Aaah. My unfamiliarity with the poetry of contemporary lore... Now I wish Illasera (technically Imoen's sister) wielded a crossbow :D
     
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    When did we find out that she was Imoen's full sister? We know that she's both Imoen and CHARNAME's half-sister, but I don't recall getting much if any backstory on Illasera.

    Also I didn't know about the Bolter Bitches until I read a Warhammer 40K crossover fic two years ago and some of the reviews/comments were talking about the "Bolter Bitches" when they were not (yet) mentioned by that monkier in the story. They are from WH40K and aside from the RTS game "Warhammer 40K:Dawn of War" I picked up a few years ago at a library "book sale" and a couple of other crossover fanfics (like Thousand Shenji or Shenji and Warhammer 40K) , I'm not very familiar with that fandom.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2022
  5. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    I said technically! Half qualifies for technically. Anyway, I'm gonna end this here coz we're discussing the lore in the wrong forum and anything more I say is only going to further expose my ignorance...
     
  6. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I often found the IWD2 Mord's Sword worked really well for archers, even in HoF, since it was itself a ranged weapon on steroids. And the caster could keep himself protected with things like Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, etc.
     
  7. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    Yes, Mordenkainen's Sword + Tenser's Transformation is my preferred choice through many of the eight chambers. That is one place where high dps matters because disabling enemies is not possible and -- if using a caster -- you have to choose which spells you want to use because you can't prebuff and you have to be careful not to get smashed while waiting enough rounds for each spell to be successfully cast.

    However, I don't think that was the intention of the original question and debate. They were asking about equipping ranged weapons for regular use throughout the campaign. Mordenkainen's Sword is a level 7 spell, so you won't get it until very late. It may also not be the spell you choose on a regular basis for the limited number of slots you have at level 7 unless it's a sorc.
     
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    I consider just getting through the Ice Temple to be a significant chunk of the game, and unless you are replaying in HoF mode, you aren't going to be casting Mordenkainen's Sword at that point. You are lucky to get 5th level spells by the time you finish the Ice Temple, and often with a 6-character party you'll start the chapter with only 3rd level spells (but quickly gain 4th level at the crash site).

    Sorry, it's a pet peeve that in gaming forums people immediately jump to late-game solutions that aren't really viable for 75%+ of the game when the conversation was talking about earlier areas. Note that I'm speaking in general, not necessarily specific to Icewind Dale.

    Back on topic, the archers can be a pain in the Shangarne river and parts of the Horde Fortress, especially the outside when they are often in hard-to-reach places. At that point in the game spells like Blindness are pretty effective, as is the obvious like the cleric's Hold Person. Even the druid's Charm Person or Mammal or the mage's Charm Person, while seriously nerfed compared to all the other Infinity Engine games (since most of the time they just stand there and do nothing, and the enemies rarely target charmed enemies) is useful for temporarily taking a distant archer out of the fight until everybody else has been deal with. It's like a poor man's Maze or Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere. The popular Chromatic Orb tends to be too low-level to be effective for long, and the spell Sleep tends to start becoming useless around the Horde Fortress, while Color Spray is too short-ranged. I really wish IWD2 let your sorcerer swap spells at level-up, as Sleep is extremely powerful and useful in the prologue through the Shangarne River, then becomes useless and would be nice to be able to swap it for Chromatic Orb which would around then start to become useful. Better yet would be to swap for Blindness and then at the Ice Temple swap Blindness for Chromatic Orb.
     
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    I like morden sword on wizard as the extra feats can stretch to picking up Power attack, generally my sorcerers get it for the iron golems before the Underdark, too soon for a wizard.

    I prefer throwing weapons for everyday use as the morden sword unequipping ranged ammo is annoying.
    bullstrength+catsgrace is a fine early game ranged option, emotion hope plays nice with rapid shot feat, 50 rounds fixed duration is nice compared to most low level buffs.

    Icetemple has a lot of clerics and I find rapid shot plus stunning/paralysis with chromatic orb gives automatic hits for plenty of dmg even on low BAB characters.


    Symbol of hopelessness will prevent critical hits so I make sure lategame it doesn't overlap with my executioner eyes
     
  10. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    This is the only reason for me to pick a wizard in my party. My sorc/bard never learns sleep (or any spell that doesn't 'grow' well), but is quite happy with color spray or chromatic orb. However, I do not like NWN-style spell swapping. In my mind, that is the only thing that distinguishes sorcs from wizards -- sorcs learn spells and know them forever, wizards wake up and feverishly cram a few spells into memory along with their pancakes, bacon and eggs. Maybe some orange juice for vitamins. Yes, there are mechanical and functional differences in the classes, but to me this is the only consideration when choosing between the two.

    Whether to bump INT or CHA is not my primary consideration. Who becomes the face of my party is generally my last consideration when building a party, and usually determined after the fact. In short, I like the 'limitation' and the difference in gameplay it offers.

    If I have more than one arcane caster in my party (which is usually the case), the second and third are always sorcs/bards (depending on the game -- in some games, bards learn spells like wiz). This is because scrolls of good spells are so limited, I don't think a second wizard can be brought up to speed in a single run without cheating.
     
  11. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    I should point out that
    In 1st and 2nd edition, bards learned spells like wizards with fewer spell slots.
    In 3rd edition & Pathfinder bards were more like sorcerers.
    In IWD2 (or pretty much any game where there are more character classes than party slots. Note that the original Pool of Radiance game only had 4 classes and 6 characters) I try not to take more than one of any class unless it is a mix-in of a level or two.
    If I want two divine casters I take a druid and cleric. If I want two arcane I select between wizard or sorcerer for the first, then choose between the other and a bard for the second.
    I lump Paladins, Rangers, Fighters, Monks, and Barbarians together as well. Only one primary of each.
    I find I get more benefit from having a range of abilities by doing it that way.
     
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    to me clerics are the best of both worlds between sorc v wizard

    learn spells by leveling up but they just get the full spell list for that level, you have the variety of the wizard with the ability to level squat and have spells that wouldn't be available by the game section you were in if you were reliant on scrolls.


    I always take many casters, a mage or cleric might know every spell but they can still only cast 1 at a time and only so many casts per day with only so many memorised per day.
     
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    Me, I like taking a cleric, a druid, a bard, and a wizard or sorcerer. Occasionally I might take both the wizard and sorcerer and drop the bard, but I like making the bard my party "face". I'll have at least one fighter type, but that might be a monk/thief.
    The fighter type gets first dibs on all AC increasing items. If I only have one "tank" I'll make sure that I have summons available to be canon fodder. I also always have somebody take some levels of rogue (not the bard, although if I have a bard they max out pick pocketing so I can take fewer rogue levels. If I make a deep gnome monk/thief I generally don't take the bard since I have plenty of rogue levels as it's a 50/50 split).
    Each has their unique magic, although the bard is a backup caster with a mix mostly arcane magic with a few divine spells.
    For some irrational reason I really like bards in the Infinity Engine games, as well as Temple of Elemental Evil even if I don't like Gherrick. I also like them in Neverwinter Nights but I can't explain why I like them.
     
  14. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    I've only recently discovered the joy of bards. Earlier I was in a min-max mindframe and automatically (and incorrectly) thought that a little bit of spellcaster, little bit of singer, little bit of fighter was too middle-of-the-range for me and would never contribute much to a party. Boy, was I wrong!
    Some bards are extremely good. Others not so. In games that have subclasses, they are good and each of their specializations is worth exploring. Even the variety of songs that pure class bards have is quite useful. I remember I once entered an undead battle without Remove Fear on and my cleric was the first to get owned. Wizard didn't know Resist Fear. Bard simply sang and next round the party was back to full strength. Then there's things like offensive spin of the Blade and a Jester or Skald's superb songs which make them very powerful contributors to the party at high or low levels.

    I am not very impressed with the IWD2 bard. Dislike the spells they get -- which would have been okay if they could at least cast other spells from scrolls, but you can't do that without a level of wizard or sorc. Songs are mildly useful, more so with lingering song, but I miss the specializations. IWD2 bard fits perfectly into my idea of a very average character -- jack of all, master of none.

    A cleric can't even remotely compare to an arcane caster. Depending on which temple your cleric favors, you get almost no good offensive spells until you are very high level. By offensive, I mean anything that affects monsters. Their disabling spells last extremely short durations (e.g., Command is only 1 round). Almost all of their spells take much longer to cast for about half the benefit of comparable arcane spells. A cleric's primary role is party-oriented (buffing, healing) and not monster-oriented (disabling, destroying). Turn Undead isn't useful until you are quite high level. Holy Smite and Flame Strike are the only useful relatively early monster-oriented spells. In some games you get Curse, Doom, Bane, etc. which are useful in some contexts, not in others.

    Druids get a good balance of offensive, protective and healing spells. However, just like clerics, their spells also take quite long to cast. I'm not talking about level 7 spells. Even something low level like Call Lightning or Static Charge takes forever. Still, at least the long casting times afford equally powerful discharges. So it's worth casting druid spells in the middle of a heated battle.

    My ideal party needs to have
    • 1 Druid
    • 1 Wizard
    • 1 other arcane caster (sorc, bard, mage/thief, etc.)
    • 1 tank (fighter, monk, ... any warrior class).
    Then I choose the rest of the party around them, depending on how large I want it to be. Choices include fighter/thief, monk/thief, cleric/thief, cleric, ... I have only played once in my life with a Paladin and will never play with them again in any game. We're primarily discussing IWD2, but choices increase in EE games (Kensai, Barbarian, etc.).
     
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    Clerics do have some offensive spells at lower levels, but they are more limited. First level you are correct, they are not that great. Bane and Doom are underwhelming, Command as you mentioned is only 1 round, and I won't even mention Magic Stone or the inflict spells.

    On the other hand, you get to 3rd level by the palisade battle enabling you to cast 2nd level spells, and Hold Person is a powerful spell. Not as powerful as it was in the Gold Box games where I was routinely casting it even in Pools of Darkness, but still one of the better single-target disablers. Chant is like combining Bless and Bane and despite the down sides is actually a pretty good buff/debuff. Silence in this game will shut down most spellcasters, unlike in BG2 (especially Throne of Bhaal) where it seems everybody had a scripted, uninterruptible Vocalize to make the spell useless. I found Spiritual Weapon to be underwhelming, about the only game I've found it great in was Pool of Radiance II:Ruins of Myth Dranor. Although it had limited utility in the first PoR from the '80s as it gave a cleric a ranged attack other than carrying lots of heavy hammers or clubs that couldn't be stacked.

    Third level is when you start to get the interesting ones, but they are typically overlooked and overshadowed by summons and protection which generally benefit you more. Animate Dead, Dispell Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, and Prayer are generally more valuable than Circle of Bones, Blindness, or Glyph of Warding, and Miscast Magic is generally inferior to Silence in this game. Similarly Hold Person is usually better than Rigid Thinking, although the latter is useful on non-humanoid characters. Contagion, Bestow Curse, Ice Blade, Moonblade, and Mold Touch are usually underwhelming, although the latter can be useful against mobs.
     
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  16. gibberishh Gems: 13/31
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    Agree on Hold Person: it is extremely good when it works. Usually takes 2-3 humanoids out. Same with Silence -- it's usefulness diminishes rapidly as the game advances because creatures start saving against it. Still, when it works it's beautiful. Mid-late game you are (or at least I am) much more likely to use Power Word: Silence, Shout or Great Shout. The rest of it just confirms my own inclinations -- very limited selection of good offensive spells (in relation to level and casting time), lots of useful self or party spells.

    High level clerics get Symbol: Stun or Holy Word (depends on your temple) which are devastating, but arcanists can get the symbols too. The most damaging cleric spells are touch range and even they are not very impressive for their levels. Mold Touch (which a druid also gets) can be useful in very few situations -- if you are surrounded by a mob and can't reach the spellcaster for some odd reason, you can attempt to 'spread' a disease from a stupid creature to their spellcaster to eventually interrupt their spells. Might as well cast Insect Plague (druid or cleric) if that is the effect you are going for -- it's not touch range, it's sure to affect all creatures and has a huge AoE.

    Nature's Beauty is extremely good for blinding boss-types (has no save), but again the casting time is ridiculous.

    I am too scared to use Chant. I don't want my cleric's casting abilities to be blocked for 11 rounds (1 for casting + 10 for spell duration) -- if someone in my party gets owned because I forgot some buff or other (or got dispelled), my cleric is usually expected to bring them back (not just healing, also mind effects including fear).

    Cleric summons are generally very robust, especially compared to low-level arcane summons. Animate Dead gets some (or a lot) magic resistance depending on caster level. Higher level summons hit like trucks. Unmodded AI doesn't cast spells like Banishment or Death Spell, so they are usually safe for the duration of their HP or spell duration. At higher levels cleric and arcanist summons somewhat even out, although I find Aerial Servant to be quite powerful.

    Edit: I am only referring to Good/Neutral clerics and also my brain is right now fuzzy between IWDEE and IWD2. I think evil clerics get a few better spells, but am not sure.
     
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    DUHM (like tensors but no restriction from spell casting) and Executioner eyes support is good enough damage output, not sure why clerics are being expected to throw out 4 meteror storms a day, its not really thier job, my sorcs have plenty of zap spells to throw out.

    holy word (the stun neatly covers mass heal casting time so instant battle reset if things go south) tremor (stuns avoiding will saves are super unique and spell focused unlike symbols), mass heal, resurrection support, symbol of hopelessness, animate dead, divine shell.

    my only spellslingers with 40 in their primary casting stat while not struggling with BAB and do monster crits with throwing weapons

    not that all matters when i only talked about spell aquisition and nothing else, a complete book of spells and not gated by scroll progression, just level up and learn them all naturally.


    don't really like dmg spells as domain options since you only get 1 of each level per day, Talos/Oghma does get a super hard to resist Wail because of wisdom stacking. Ilmater/Talos also get the games single strongest Horrid wilting because it gets lvl 9 DC.


    Mask; blur, mirror image, executioner eyes. first two are caster only which makes them high priority as they can't be supplied by team mates. EE only lasts ten rounds so another is welcome since arcane casters have other lvl 9 spells to be casting while clerics aren't super stacked unless you really love to cast summon monster IX

    Bane; don't care about most except getting the strongest Mass dominate around, when will saves can hard counter the spell into doing nothing you really want to squeeze every last DC you can. I think this maybe the hardest to save against spell the player can ever have as focus: enchantment is also an option


    Clerics care little for Evocation so can easily spare feats into the other spell focuses.


    I used to pick Tempus clerics but I think i like their domain spells the least of all, just 1 extra copy of common clerics spells. I want unique things that open up otherwise impossible combos. Replaced them with a cleric of Helm, tons of otherwise wizard self only buffs and the alignment to also go Paladin which already beats the basic axe feat of Tempus.

    Lathander got replaced by Ilmater, fire storm/flame strike are generic spells any cleric has already, rather take the horrid wilting and the 50 rounds emotion hope such that even my wizard doesn't feel the need to memorise it. Leave focus evocation to the professional evoker sorcerers.

    I have been tempted on a Selune cleric to see if Moonblade got overlooked in some way and ends up being a complete shutdown on any enemy caster, ambush them from invisibillty so they never lift a finger.

    nabbing arcane spells from domains is great because it doesn't have a counterpart to work in the reverse direction
     
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    wand of entanglement can be cast indoors and underground

    stick > druid

    I only really use it because the move speed reduction functions fully even in HoF games
     
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    Actually, I find that rainstorm seems to lose effectiveness by the time you leave with Oswald in the airship.
    It is useful, but not that powerful atop the Horde Fortress.
    That said, it is only a second level spell, and up until that point there are quite a few outdoor battles, such as the Palisade Battle, almost the entire Shangarne river chapter except for a small cave, the area outside the Horde Fortress, the battle at the top, and the three maps when you're trying to get into the Ice Temple after the airship is shot down.
    I make extensive use of rainstorm and call lightning in those areas, and only stop memorizing them before entering the ice temple. I do memorize them again afterwards for the Wandering Village area, but I find by then Rainstorm has limited usefulness, it's like Snlock's Snowball Storm in that it just doesn't do enough damage and you're better off trying to memorize something like Charm Person or Mammal to disable a fighter instead.
     
  20. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    A Cleric with a lot of Holy Words can effectively stun-lock the horde during the first and crucial phases of the battle. A Stormbringer of Talos can sometimes be mistaken for a Sorcerer (sort of).

    That was what I liked about IWD2, lots of ways for different players to skin the cat.
     
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