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Pissed at Propaganda

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Dice, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Not so interesting coming from someone who values the United States Bill of Rights.

    Words in general can't hurt you. How is a sexual slur directed at you degrading, unless you have a low opinion of yourself? If it's a lie, correct the lie and move on. If the lie gains traction and actually does your reputation harm, there are laws to gain redress. If it's just an insult, like I said, words can't hurt you.

    Why would it tell the person it's OK to say that kind of thing? Use your words to say it is not OK. There may be many people who support you who will also say it's not OK.

    So what if the person is getting the attention they want? How does that harm you? If the behavior becomes disruptive overall to whatever space they are in, and the person refuses to stop interfering with the running of the space, well typically there are ways of removing that person as unwanted due to the disruptive behavior.

    I do not think it is wiser to censor, even in the case you present, though I can certainly understand the impulse to censor; but I thought we were talking about propaganda, not slurs when I said it is never necessary.

    There are certain cases where it is prudent to censor which are dangerous things like incitement to violence where the consequences of allowing it to go on can cause actual harm to people, and when emotions are running high it is sometimes impossible to reason with people.

    As a moderator I need to enforce the rules of the space I am moderating, even though I didn't make the rules.
     
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  2. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I'm getting to that, and believe me it all ties in. I don't have the energy to type that up right now though.

    Wow, just wow. I re-evaluated my view of what kind of person you are. It would be nice if you could look at that sentence and really think about the concept. How is a sexual slur directed at someone NOT degrading? BTW there are a lot of women and men who've been conditioned their entire lives to have a low opinion of themselves, whether or not they deserve it. You have no idea of the kind of effect any kind of slurs could have on them.

    Why go that far when you can find a way to take care of it without making it a show?
     
  3. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Because they are just words. Words can't make you anything you're not unless you let them. Seriously, I don't care what some unknown person on the internet says to me.

    Those people should try to get some professional help because they need it, and it would make their lives a lot better. If they can't for whatever reason, they should really stay away from the social media part of the internet because it's a shithole.

    As stated, that was the last resort if the person will not stop disrupting the space.
     
  4. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    If they have been conditioned their entire lives to have a low opinion of themselves they may not even have the tools to recognise they need help. And even if they recognise they do need help, they might not have the means to get it. Social media can also be a life-saver for those who are isolated either willingly or unwillingly. Do you think slander and slurs only happen on social media? Did you ever go to high-school? Racism, sexism, sexual prejudice and all kinds of hate exist both inside and outside the internet. I have no problem with censoring lies, propaganda, and hate. It's better than perpetuating false belief and negative behavior, which in the end only causes more damage.

    BTW, social media is only a shithole depending on who your surround yourself with, pretty much like the world outside the internet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  5. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    There are a few problems with that:
    1. Who decides what should be censored and what shouldn't? What if that person has the opposite idea from you?
    2. By censoring ideas all you are doing is hiding it, you are not solving anything. You are not exposing bad ideas and bad behavior for what they are.
    3. By having someone else protect you from these ideas you disagree with by censoring, and not arguing against them yourself you do not learn to do so and are less able to defend yourself
    4. Censoring can allow a false narrative to be perceived as truth
    Since you cannot censor real life, then why do you want to censor the internet? Wouldn't it be better to handle them both the same? It's safer and easier (and possibly even anonymous if you choose) to practice defending yourself and your ideas on the internet.
     
  6. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    In regard to the statement you quoted

    1. In serious matters, it should probably be a small group that is knowledgeable to recognise messages that perpetuate lies, propaganda and hate.

    2. By allowing a messages like "The Virus Doesn't Exist." to perpetuate, they will be shared by the radical people that believe it and will be viewed by naive people who have not received the correct information. The disinformation will be shared, encouraging people to ignore protective measure and ultimately spreading the virus way further, when it could have been stopped by not allowing people to see the negative message in the first place.

    3. Ok, I'll re-explain this to you. (BTW if I had the axe here I would have taken care of it myself) Sometimes it's not worth giving slander any kind of attention. Even if I'm correcting or pointing out the truth, the damage has already been done and it's essentially glorifying a negative statement.

    4. I agree that can sometimes happen. The same fringe group of people will believe anything that gives their narrative fuel. Those people are less of a significant group than if they were also encouraging and spreading the lies to people who start to question things because they see a FALSE statement being perpetuated.
     
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Let me use your shorthand:
    1. Good luck with that when people you disagree with get into power.
    2. Really fringe ideas will be left to the really fringe population which you will never be rid of.
    3. I disagree. At a minimum the person spouting the slander is revealed; by deleting it you simply hide it and nobody is the wiser. I also disagree that any damage is necessarily done or cannot be reverse with a correction. And I completely disagree that leaving the slander is glorifying anything, especially if many people stand up to refute it and point out how wrong it is.
     
  8. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Your shorthand is even shorter than mine. You're very economical with the spacing and you stopped one number short.
     
  9. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    :) I didn't have anything to say about item 4, and since it was the last item, didn't feel it necessary to try to come up with something :lol:
     
  10. xosmi Gems: 20/31
    Latest gem: Garnet


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    I'm just gonna assume he meant never within the context of combating misinformation.

    Censorship isn't a bad thing as is - several uses of censoring are things we should all be able to get behind, like filtering harmful/sensitive content and other things that go against a platform's guidelines;
    But censorship simply for the sake of getting rid of an opinion that is inconvenient or to suppress a group from speaking out simply because they are misinformed and their values don't match to your own is considered a bad thing by a majority of people.

    So taken in context i'd agree that misinformation should not be removed completely outright. Similarly in your hypothetical the content is clearly against the site guidelines and harmful since it's not simply stating information but a direct attack on your person so there'd be plenty of grounds to get the post removed/the person warned or banned.

    With the huge amounts of online discourse and spread of information though, it's tough to say how much can be left in the hands of human moderation, and what kind of automated systems can/should be implemented. Especially since automated censorship might lack a certain soft touch - simply removing all content pertaining to a piece of (mis)information entirely .

    Suppressing misinformation by removing it all might seem like a decent plan at first glance, but there's a real risk of overcompensating.
    Hard censoring like this can lead to accurate and useful information being censored as well, or even reinforce the misinformation. Instead of allowing for discourse, blocking off one side entirely may only give them a false sense of legitimacy as they may spin the narrative of complete censorship into one of unjust persecution.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2020
    ConjurerDragon likes this.
  11. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    All good points Xosmi.

    Although I used my hypothetical to try and make a point, the real and original issue has to do with censoring information on social platforms like Facebook. There has been a lot of harmful propaganda being perpetuated and when it gets out there and spread around some people start to question what is real. I want to write more but it'll have to wait until tomorrow because I'm off to see some family at our family campsite.
     
  12. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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  13. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    @Beren, it looks like a good source however you can't access it if you don't have a subscription to their site. I wonder if there's a way you can copy-paste the text or is that not allowed?
     
  14. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    The "Free" option on the left allows you to access the story.
     
  15. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Thanks Tal, I didn't see it the first time I followed the link.

    Thanks Beren. Very interesting article with solid examples.
     
  16. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I think you mean the media's atrocious distortions of his words, generalizing what he actually said to paint him as a racist and a white supremacist; like they do all conservative or right-leaning people and organizations.
     
  17. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Fair point. I still tend to think that his words, even if accurately conveyed, would still on some level make him a lightning rod in the charged social atmosphere that the US is now. IMHO :)
     
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