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Pissed at how crazy the world has gotten lately.

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Dice, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Depends on what you mean by a "problem".

    Do I think police should be better trained and have better abilities to subdue suspects? Sure, but I am not in their shoes and really have no idea what kinds of hurdles they have surmount in order to accomplish something like that.

    Do I think police are systematically racist and target minorities for shooting? No.

    Do I think police are systematically racist and target minorities for brutality? No. Though there is evidence (at the same link above) that minorities are more likely to experience some type of nonlethal force in interactions with police.

    But what I think really doesn't matter. What matters is people are free to peacefully protest any injustices they believe exist, but they are not free to break the law while protesting and they are certainly not free to riot and loot and burn down cities and tear down statues. And if "protesters" are using some nice-sounding slogan to hide their nefarious intentions people (including Trump) are free to point it out. And I support the demonization of BLM specifically.
     
  2. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    At least you admit it. You support the vilifying if BLM.

    I know many supporters of abolishing racism through peace and education. If Kyle Rittenhouse was black he'd be dead already. Shot before he could even pull the trigger.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Errr . . . Jacob Blake is Black. Are you referring to Kyle Rittenhouse?
     
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  4. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Yeah... I was just coming to fix that . It dawned on me I had written the wrong name when I was doing something else. Have a lot on my mind these days :facepalm:
     
  5. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Shot by whom? The police? The police were nowhere near when Kyle was attacked and he didn't pull the trigger of his weapon anywhere near the police.
     
  6. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    You 3 need to get a room! <snip> :p :beer:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2020
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    *ahem* This forum is for serious discussions... :)
     
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  8. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Sorry, I thought I was serious :) Doesn't this shit happen every 4 years? Except not this SERIOUS! :beer:
     
  9. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I reread this part of your post, and I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say...

    I have admitted from the beginning of this thread that I believe BLM should be vilified; did something I said later surprise you?

    And I think it's great that you know people who want to abolish racism through peace and education, but what does that have to do with the topic? Did I misunderstand something?
     
  10. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    At all you just wrote above BTA. Vilifying something means you are looking at it through biased glasses and refuse to acknowledge any good message it represents. You vilify BLM because you blindly support your president who is a racist, misogynistic, sociopath. No, you won't surprise me with anything you say however I appreciate that you've kept it civil.
     
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ah, if that is the definition you are using, then no, I do not agree I am vilifying BLM. I have given you facts about why they are an organization that should not be supported by anyone who is not a Marxist. I do not refuse to acknowledge any good message it represents; I am saying that regardless of any good messages it represents, nobody that is not a Marxist should support BLM, they should rather support some other group that does not share their ideology, or create their own group.

    I do not blindly support the President; I don't know where you got such an idea. I don't even like Trump on a personal level, though I do like many of the things he has accomplished during his term in office. I have given logical arguments that I don't believe you have refuted. To my mind you vilify (using your definition of the word) the President, ascribing to him things he did not do. He is definitely not a racist. He is definitely not a misogynist in the sense that he hates women, but he was certainly a womanizer in his younger days (and maybe still is, but I think he's too old for that now). I don't think in general he treats women any worse than men, though I don't really follow what he says very closely (as I said elsewhere I can't listen to politicians and their BS) so I could be persuaded otherwise; it seems to me he just attacks anyone or anything that says anything bad about him. I don't think I would call him a sociopath, though I'm not very familiar with the medical definition and all it means; as above he does certainly verbally attack people who say anything bad about him.
     
  12. WickedPrince Gems: 9/31
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    I will again defend BTA; only the media and the communist Democrats as far as I know promote Trump as a racist; misogynist; etc. Statistics on the corporations he owns says he promotes minorities to important high-paying positions in his companies at higher percentages than the US Government. That doesn't suggest to me at all that he hates minorities. Also I will say that claiming that people like us who think; and support Trump "blindly follow" him is a slander and you should look at your own loyalty to your own party and ask yourself if you are realistically looking at them and their policies. Yeah I'll admit he's cantankerous and I've often referred to him as (T)rump; but he's been doing more to help our country come out of it's economic slump and bring jobs back into the country than any other president in recent memory. Who was the last previous president who went to North Korea? Who had the balls to try that?

    But of course only Jesus could make blind men see; so those of you who are blind to the truth will refuse to believe every fact put before you. I've generally found that it's pointless to argue with people who insist on believing their own "facts" even after being given contrary facts coming from more reliable sources than politicians and biased media.

    I'll say what I've said to others before; ALL lives matter. I have to wonder for myself when African American's end up in the police firing line why that happened; and I refuse to accept that it is solely because police pick on African American's without reason in the majority of cases. If police are racists than why is it that none of the other racial minorities are complaining about police racial bias? Why aren't other minority races reporting "police brutality" issues?

    Mistakes happen, sometimes horrible ones, but if you paint everyone who does a particular job with the same colors as a single person who made a mistake; then you are making the same mistake you claim the police are making by slandering ALL members of a group because of the actions of a minority. Police perform a dangerous; thankless; high stress; necessary job. The only rational reason IMHO for de-funding them is if you think there aren't any crimes being committed; and all you have to do is pay any attention at all to any news platform to realize that this isn't true.
     
  13. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I don't quote scripture, I believe in science. Unfortunately Trump does not support facts and there are many many clips of recorded video to prove he says ignorant factless things and then lies about it later, and says the opposite when his publicists let him know he fucked up again.(again recorded documentation.) The rest of your quote is pretty accurate to the blindness of those devoted to Trump.

    Also if you want to bring "Jesus" into it then you've already told me that you don't base your facts on anything solid. Religion is just a tool to control people, like Santa and the tooth fairy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  14. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    They are. Indigenous people is Canada are having the exact same issues with RCMP and police. We can go into it further if you're not willing to investigate it yourself.
     
  15. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I couldn't find the kind of statistics for Canada that the FBI and others maintain for the United States, so it's hard to tell from the numbers.

    I could only find homicide rates that separated out the indigenous people from the other races and they show that indigenous people are accused at 9 times the rate and are the victims at 5 times the rate of the other races, as well as the fact that most homicides are by people who know each other (which implies indigenous people are killing each other). So that implies that the indigenous people are committing violent crimes at a higher rate than the other races... do you know if that's true or not?

    I also saw an anecdotal video showing that indigenous chief arrest that seems to be a big deal in Canada recently (I couldn't find any others; I guess not everybody in Canada is ready with a cell phone video like in the US :) ). Is it typical for the indigenous people to be belligerent with the police like the chief was?

    How do you know the motivation for the cases of brutality against indigenous people is racism? Not that if it's something other than racism the brutality is then justified.

    I don't really know anything about racism in Canada...
     
  16. WickedPrince Gems: 9/31
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    I brought Jesus into it to prove the point that only magic can cause the blind; and the willfully blind; to see. In this case to see truth. I've admitted that I don't always like what Trump says; what I care about is what he does. And so far what he's doing is things most of us thought impossible; like the aforementioned meeting with North Korea. That he had the courage to go in, and the ability to negotiate with their insane dictator successfully and get out alive shows a lot to me about what he does. I especially find amusing how much all of you blindly-devoted democrats get thrown into a total tizzy by him.

    I should also mention that I'm not the least bit religious.

    Canada by the way isn't the US; maybe that confuses you; but statistics about Canada prove nothing about American Police; which is the discussion I believe YOU (dice) started.

    --

    I'm going to point out that bringing in statistics about Canada as proof of racism in America is absurd by pointing out that what you are saying is equal to saying that in Africa; African Police mostly arrest African's proves American police are racists against African's. In Asia; Asian Police mostly arrest Asians and this proves American police are racist against Asians. In Mexico; Mexican police mostly arrest Mexican's which proves that American police are racist against Mexicans. There is NO logic to that argument.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2020
  17. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    OK, let's tone down the name-calling. This subject is obviously one that @Beren could have a lot to say about if he wanted to join the discussion.
     
  18. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    It's ok if Beren doesn't want to join in. People have their reasons for staying out of discussions like this and I respect that. I agree completely that he's very experienced in this matter.

    You didn't specify that you only wanted data from the USA and I never said that is was only a problem in the USA. I started the thread covering a few topics, but later reduced it to one topic for focus. I used BLM as a reference for people like you who don't see issues outside your bubble. Neither you or BTA were aware of the horrific treatment of Indigenous people in Canada, which has a very significant tie-in with this topic.

    I find it especially amusing that you think I'm a democrat. My hate of Trump comes from a much wider perspective than that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  19. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ok, I'll weigh in a bit here.

    If you live as a member of either an Indigenous, Latino or Black community, everyone in the community has an expectation that they'll be subject to greater police scrutiny in comparison to everybody else. And no, community members day to day don't care about things like quantifiable stats. It's a vibe they feel. There's a movie called The Hate That You Get that gets into what I'm talking about.

    We actually do have our own versions of Floyd George here. JJ Harper and Donald Marshall are two examples where the racism was blatant. As for the Alan Adams case, I get what BTA was saying. But there's another side to the coin. A license plate check is often deal with a warning and not much more. There is a perception that the police response was out of proportion, including aggression towards Adams' wife when he felt the need to come to her defense.

    As for missing and murdered Indigenous women, a lot of those have been verified to have occurred precisely because of a toxic mix of both misogyny and racism towards Indigenous women. There's plenty of cases there too, Helen Betty Osborne and Pamela George being but two examples. We actually had a serial killer here named John Martin Crawford, who targeted Indigenous women exclusively on the assumption that police racism would increase his chances of going undetected.

    So I can verify that a LOT of Indigenous peoples here on this side of the border feel that they receive inordinate increased scrutiny as suspects of crime, but are less valued and prioritized as victims of crime. And it's not unreasonable for us to feel that way.

    I can't speak for Blacks in the USA, even though I've kept up with the headlines and can see the parallels. But I don't doubt that the dynamics are similar yet different in detail.

    Lastly, I know not all police officers are racists. I've known plenty who believe in protect and serve with all their hearts. If anything, one of the many unfortunate downsides of all this is that if scrutiny on the police gets kicked into high gear, does it leave the honest and well-intentioned officers feeling like they can't do their jobs without stepping on eggshells?
     
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  20. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Hey Beren, glad you could contribute :)

    And that's why I feel it is negligent and dangerous for the media (in the United States at least) to forward and support the narrative that it is racism that is driving the killing of black people in the United States when there is no factual basis for it and studies of the stats do not support that narrative (though such statistical analyses are not easy or definitive). A quote from the Harvard study of US stats I linked above:

    So based on their analyses, there is no apparent racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings in the US, yet given the media coverage you'd think blacks were being hunted down and killed by the police.
     
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