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Shoot a burglar, get his accomplice charged with murder

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by dmc, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    This highlights some of the differences between the US and Europe. A woman was home with her baby, someone started to break in, she called 911, was told that she could defend herself if they came in, once the first guy comes in, she shoots and kills him, the other one flees, and he (not the woman) is charged with murder.

    Seems about right to me.

    Odd bit is that she's 18, with a kid and a recent widow. Her deceased husband was 58. Seems a bit of a steep age difference.


    Story
     
    dmc, Jan 6, 2012
    #1
  2. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yeah, that's interesting, I've been reading about it.

    Charging the accomplice with first degree murder seems strange though. First, there is no crime because she was defending herself, so how is it now a crime for someone else? Second, even if one can justify it by saying the accomplice contributed to the death, how can the death be judged premeditated? I'd think the worst could be involuntary manslaughter...
     
    Blackthorne TA, Jan 6, 2012
    #2
  3. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    They were breaking and entering along with "attempted" anything under the sun (robbery, rape, murder, etc.). I believe when there is a death involved during the commission of a felony that death can be ruled a murder by the perpetrators of the crime. Odd application though....
     
    T2Bruno, Jan 6, 2012
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  4. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    So if some guy smashes through your door armed with a knife, you shoot him dead and get the carpet cleaned? I must say the American way has a lot to be said for it!

    I just hope the young lady doesn't lose too much sleep over this.
     
    Montresor, Jan 6, 2012
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  5. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Isn't that just like an addict - bringing a knife to a gun fight. Did she double tap?

    I agree T2. I know many states have laws on the books stating that killing someone during the commission of another felony is grounds for 1st degree murder, but I always thought that it was implicit that if YOU killed someone while committing a felony you could be charged, not that if someone else killed someone you could be.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Jan 6, 2012
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  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    It's called felony murder. Basically, you can be charged with murder in connection with any death resulting from your commission of a felony.

    Think of someone who torches a building for the insurance proceeds -- arson, right? Well, if someone was in the building that he didn't know about, and that person dies, it's first degree felony murder even without the intent to kill.
     
    dmc, Jan 6, 2012
    #6
  7. Marceror

    Marceror Chaos Shall Be Sown In Their Footsteps Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I read about this yesterday. As a friend of mine put it, it's a very "civilized" law that we're seeing here.
     
    Marceror, Jan 6, 2012
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  8. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    dmc - I get that - and in your example the person committing the arson would have killed someone, so I wouldn't have a problem adding a murder charge along with the arson. AFAIK, this dude didn't even enter the house yet. I agree that the absolute literal interpretation of the law would mean he can be charged with murder, I was just pointing out that I felt it was implicit that YOU were the one who killed someone. I agree with T2 that it's an odd application of the law.

    I'll be interested to see if he gets convicted. You may have a hard time convincing a jury that he should be found guilty of 1st degree murder when he didn't actually kill someone. I think he's going to jail for a long time regardless - there's a whole list of other stuff he can and will be charged with.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Jan 6, 2012
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  9. Jazhara7 Gems: 7/31
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    I agree that this kind of logic is rather strange.

    It really makes no sense to in any way blame the accomplice for the death of the burglar, unless maybe he somehow forced him to go breaking into a house. And even then, it is a bit farfetched and at most manslaughter. I mean, the guy who died had its own free will and decided to go and break into a house. If he is killed during that, it is not his partner's fault, unless there are any kind of indicators otherwise. The only one who reasonably *could* be accused was the woman, as she actually held the gun, fired the shot, yadda yadda. Though she was defending herself of course.
     
    Jazhara7, Jan 10, 2012
    #9
  10. Proteus_za

    Proteus_za

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    I am glad he is being charged with something, but I agree that the charge of murder seems too harsh. Involuntary manslaughter or something sounds about right.

    I feel sorry for her though - this happened a week after her husband passed away. Yeah, their marriage must have been serious pedobear material - he was 58, she was 18 and already married and pregnant. So she must have been younger when they started dating. Anyway, even so, pretty traumatic for her to go through.

    But kudos to the law for A) giving her the sanctioned use of force to defend herself, B) standing behind her and not treating her as a criminal, like a lot of countries would.
     
    Proteus_za, Jan 10, 2012
    #10
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