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Is crime a rational choice or a product of social circumstance?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Beren, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I'm opening this thread in part to keep the London Rioting thread focused, but also to encourage a discussion of the topic in its broadest sense, and not necessarily restricted to what was going on in England.

    Anyway, this is a subject of considerable debate among lawyers, sociologists, criminologists, psychologists, etc.

    So, is crime always a matter or rational and moral choice, such as to justify deterrence, retribution?

    Or ... does social circumstance have much to do with many crimes? Does this alleviate individual culpability to any degree? Should our policy efforts therefore be directed more towards social engineering than towards criminalization?

    For many crimes, I lean towards the second school of thought. At least for a lot of those other than those psychopaths like Clifford Olsen and Paul Bernardo who should have the key thrown away on them. Yes, LKD, go ahead and say your piece. ;) I've lived in the Aboriginal community my whole life, I defended many Aboriginal clients while I was still a practicing lawyer, and work for my community in any capacity I can.

    For example, a lot of Aboriginal women get involved with prostitution and petty theft simply out necessity, actual or self-perceived. And its not just to get themselves by day to day, they've often got little mouths to feed. To tell me, "That woman committed an immoral crime. She made a deliberate moral choice that she should be ashamed of. Shame on her." Sounds pretty hollow to me. Compare that Aboriginal woman who steals Kraft dinner to try and feed her kids to somebody much more privileged who lives uptown and can afford a live in chef. Of course, it is a given that the latter is so much more moral and makes much better choices, right? Sounds hollower still.

    By the way, I'm bringing this up as a non-violent context to illustrate how this kind of debate can extend well beyond the London riots.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  2. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Why can't it be a rational choice based on the particular social circumstance the person finds him or herself in? Not sure I understand your dichotomy here.
     
  3. Daisuke Gems: 1/31
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    I take a more moderate stance on this particular subject. While everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions, we also cannot and must not use this as an excuse to simply dismiss factors of social environments and how they influence people. This just isn't a subject that can boil down to any one factor.

    The way I see things is thus: Every crime must be judged based on the facts of the individual case. For some it is simply a matter of someone being an evil mustache-twirling twit, though I rather think this to be somewhat rare. For others social environment plays a rather large role, but as with the other extreme I think this is rare. I would say that for a great deal of crimes, it is a healthy mix of each.

    I also feel it is important to point out that the field of criminal psychology does not exist to explain why people should not be held accountable for their actions, only to explain why they have committed their misdeeds. That it does get used for such a purpose is an aberration.
     
  4. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    @dmc

    Certainly the dichotomy isn't a hard and fast one, but it is one that academics and others debate intensely.

    What complicates this ... and the point that LKD brought up is this ...

    Some people will find themselves in the same social straits. Some of them will commit crimes, others won't. For example, some Aboriginal persons who've been to hell and back because of residential schools, poverty, you name it, manage to stay out of the justice system despite everything that's happened to them.

    Yet ... there's no shortage of studies that confirm that things like poverty, having been abused in your own home, negative peer associations, etc. have a definite crimogenic effect. What I mean by 'crimogenic effect' is that it will raise the probabilities of community members committing crimes in comparison to a community that isn't experiencing things like intergenerational abuse, poverty, etc. etc. And this starts to raise the question of whether policy should be geared towards preventative measures and social community building rather than reflexive criminalization. I know all this by the way because I'm preparing a book manuscript that deals in part with this subject.

    So in everyday life, I can see a lot of criminal occurrences as having elements of both. Sure, maybe there was a choice. But at the same time, maybe the wrong choice would have been much more unlikely were circumstances better.
     
  5. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    Well, unless the criminal is insane and unable to act rationally, any act they do is a rational choice. Likewise, if they are not at a child-like level of mental development, they have some moral system they use to determine their course of action. So yes, in the vast majority of cases crime is a rational choice.

    However, that doesn't mean it can't also be influenced by one's circumstances. No matter how rational a person is, their circumstances determine their available scope of actions. Therefore, in many cases criminals were influenced by their environment. When life gives you lemons, you can't make a creme brulee. IMO such circumstances should be taken into account - just as they are taken into account to differentiate between self-defense and murder. If, in extreme circumstances, we are allowed to kill one another, then it makes sense that lesser violations can also be justified in similarly drastic situations.

    Note that needn't absolve someone of responsibility. In most cases, criminals from a disadvantaged background aren't in such force majeure situations, and commit a crime - say, stealing - simply because it's easier and more likely to succeed. In such cases, their social, political etc situation should simply be mitigating circumstances. And, well, mitigating circumstances only go so far, especially in cases of serious violations, such as rape or murder. However, we should be aware that there were some social issues that contributed to this end and we have a responsibility to work towards fixing them - both to reduce future cases like that and to help the people who suffer from them and didn't become criminals.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  6. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    My answer to the titular question is an emphatic "Yes!" :p i.e. I'm with dmc here; I don't really accept the dichotomy either.

    The way the questions puts it is one pitted against the other as the so-called debate format suggests it. IMO the reason why it is put that way generally is political, with the Conservatives leaning towards rational choice (suggesting in their eyes crime fighting through repression and deterrence) and the Progressives leaning towards social circumstance (mandating things like social works to prevent crime through societal change). We shouldn't let that dictate our choices, nor let it pollute the debate.

    I don't think that the two terms are mutually exclusive. It can be one, or the other and just as well both at the same time, and then it may be something else entirely, say, mere impulse. I think that for many miscreants out there, committing a crime doesn't require cognitive process.

    As a rule I think that pure rational choice is something notably absent in human nature. I find absurd the concept of human beings, as Utilitarianism has it, being primarily driven by pleasures and pains, reacting to stimuli, calculating (correctly) what will give maximum pleasure, and act accordingly. We would live in a less messed up world if that was true.

    I object to ideological claims to a monopoly on universal explanations for human activity. Man is far more complex and irrational than to allow for that, for one and especially, as dmc has put it so well, what is rational depends heavily on the circumstances. What is rational to A or B may very well appear utterly crazy to a distanced observer. While that doesn't discredit the idea of rational choice per se, it suggests to take it with the proverbial grain of salt. It offers valuable insights, but it doesn't tell the whole story. The same must be said for social circumstances as a factor. One needs to have both eyes open to see three dimensional.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  7. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I'm with dmc and Ragusa. To use your example Beren of the woman who steals food to feed her children will illustrate this just fine. She is making a rational choice (stealing food to feed her children) based on her social circumstances (living in poverty without enough money to buy food).
     
  8. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Most crime is from rational thought (some crime is irrational, generally caused by some form of mental issue). The rationale may not have been well thought out, but it was a conscious decision which involved some form of logical processing.
     
  9. Gaear

    Gaear ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful

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    People seem to so often need reasons for things happening that I suspect it pushes them toward assuming that there always or most aften are reasons. But sometimes there are no reasons, or at least no good ones. Sometimes things just happen. The guy who cut off his disabled son's head the other day to make his girlfriend feel bad probably didn't have a good reason (making his girlfriend feel bad was not a good reason), or a logical reason (doing it was not somehow justified, nor was he put in an impossible situation), or a societal reason (no matter how hard I try I can't connect societal pressures or disadvantages to the need to do something like that), and he probably wasn't even insane (he looked and talked very normal - he didn't say aliens made him do it, or the mafia, or that he needed to recover a listening device from in there). But he still did it.

    So that crime was neither rational nor irrational, societal nor individual, and even if we could call it any of those it wouldn't have changed the outcome or stopped it from happening. If there's no discernable reason for something happening, you can't predict it or defend against it or prescribe drugs for it or provide jobs for it or anything else. :bad:
     
  10. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I've never said that circumstances and the environment don't have a huge impact on people. I got a whole lot of grief awhile back for opining that poor people tend to commit a lot of crime. As has been mentioned since, there is a solid correlation between poverty rates and crime rates.

    But regardless, circumstances do not determine behaviour, and they most assuredly do not excuse criminal behaviour. It's all well and good to look for the factors that influenced a person into making his decisions, but at the end of the day, people decide, whether rationally or totally lacking in logic, to do the things they do. IMHO, some of these criminals know better, but they figure "oh, if I get caught I'll just lay a sob story on the judge and I'll get off easy in the aftermath of the pity party!"

    I mean seriously, how long can some people blame their bad choices on their lousy family lives or bad luck in terms of familial socieo-economic standing?

    I'm all for addressing the problem things -- unemployment, poverty, social isolation and alienation, addiction, etc. But in so doing we shouldn't focus only on that and let dangerous people wander around at will to victimize more people. It should be made clear to those who commit crimes that no matter what your reasons, we will not tolerate criminal behaviour!
     
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