1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Double standards in Europe through Slovak case studies -- did you know these?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Baronius, Jan 10, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    [​IMG]
    Lame try to misrepresent the truth. I can stand the heat, and I can utter the reality: there is disgusting insolence not just from the direction of several members here, but also internationally by certain Western politicians/governments. If you think that the task of small countries (such as Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia etc.) is to serve the big ones (and to be able to fill your tummy and get much money, even if you need to give up your cultural traditions and conservative moral values, then it's your call -- no I'm not talking of Slovenia before you would be offended, this is merely an example that I know about other countries that I know better than Slovenia).

    There is no problem with the heat of the Alley. And you'free to continue pretending not to understand the simple thing (the double standards applied by certain Western European governments/politicians regarding Hungary).

    No, I didn't start them to convince "all of you". Each time it is so funny when you think like that. You often hide behind this "we" and "us" concepts on SP. First of all, the threads have a double reason: (1) informing the public (including passive readers) and drawing the attention to the cases. (2) convincing those who are interested and are open to my approaches. Second, you cannot even define "all of us". On a public place, you can't know who exactly read it and how many passive users you have.

    It is a common and funny thing that the active "cream" of the forum thinks they are the "ALL", that everything is directed only to them, and only their opinion matters. :lol: No, "you" guys are not the only one who matters.

    Political puppet text, or too big pride. Don't you feel it suspicious a bit that noone actually tried to give an answer to my question here about how come Slovakia got much less criticism for big democratic issues?

    Was painful to see someone dared to tell the reality, eh? You thought everybody is conformist just to get a "good international opinion" of the big countries?

    I ask you better. You support the double standard yourself. While you (also) objected that in the other media law topics "Baronius thinks he is right because he is says so" i.e. accusing me of not giving explicit valid arguments, you choose to ignore that exactly THAT happens in this topic by all replies: they all jump on the HU media law, and ignore the cental question of my topic: "how come Slovakia got much less criticism for big democratic issues?". Only Rotku answered it. And he proved what I wanted to prove: the double standard. Feel free to continue supporting the double standard and "we rock here, you are noob minority" approach.
     
  2. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, if anybody was convinced by your arguments, I'd be very happy if they posted here to let you know. Or they could PM me if they don't want to post. So far, I haven't heard that from anyone.

    You have got to be joking... several of us (me included) gave you all the answers you could ever want. The only problem is, you simply glance over them as if they weren't there, because that's the only way you can keep up your mantra of poor, discriminated-against Hungary. And then you merrily post: "Nobody is answering me! Aha - that proves I'm right!". The reality is a bit different - you only hear your own voice and nobody else's.
     
  3. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    This is a FACTUAL question of topic:
    I do not see any answers, except Rotku's, whose answer proved what I said: there is political bias.

    Apart from that, there was only one type of answer: "don't point to Slovakia, look into yourself and deal with the criticism you get". Now this can be an acceptable answer to a topic that deals whether the HU media law is good or not, etc. There are two other such topics.

    "don't point to Slovakia, look into yourself and deal with the criticism you get" is irrelevant in this topic.

    What is relevant: (1) why Hungary gets stronger criticism than Slovakia which has had much serious democratic issues than what the media law is accused of?

    This is a question. Direct me to those "several" answers then, Taluntain. No, I don't care in this topic if the media law is good or not; the question is given by (1) above.

    IF your answer is as Rotku's ("it's politics" i.e. there is bias), then how is it possible that (2a) THOSE WHO ALLOW THEMSELVES TO HAVE A POLITICAL BIAS AGAINST HUNGARY EXPECT AN UNBIASED MEDIA LAW? (e.g. French or German officials who didn't attack the Slovak antidemocratic acts/laws at all, but were harsh with HU now) In other words:
    Come on, direct me to the answers of (1), and (2a) or (2b). I'm waiting.
     
  4. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    Baronius, I hate double standards as much as you do -- I even had a post with just that label a while back. It's the same reason that the US screams bloody murder about human rights abuses in some countries, but remains relatively quiet about similar or worse abuses in others (like Saudi Arabia, China, etc). The fact is that they have an interest, be it economic or political, in not aggravating certain countries, and also an interest in whipping up malice toward other countries.

    An excellent example from my own neck of the woods. Lots of Americans LOVE to point fingers at my home province and complain about the dirty oil (while they fly around the world in their fuel sucking jets and drive their cars all over hither and yon) but they don't criticize the Saudi's or other POS Middle Eastern tyrannies for far worse offenses. The reason is they know that we won't go OPEC on their butts and cut the flow. They also know that by criticizing us, they can make the far too polite Canadians knuckle under and drop the prices of the oil we send them. It's purely economic and political game playing, nothing more. Obviously, there is profit for the EU countries to urinate on Hungary at the moment. No big deal, it's part of life. Take their criticism with a grain of salt, knowing that despite their assertions, they are hardly neutral in their behaviour.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    Baronius, read post #11 in this thread. I'm not going to repeat it for you for the third time. If you don't want to understand that it answers all of your issues, then I really have no choice but to conclude that you're intentionally being dense, as I know that you're not stupid.

    As I said before, you think that everybody is against Hungary over this Orban issue. Maybe if you'll ever be able to emotionally detach yourself from this situation you'll realize that Europe's worries over the freedom of the press in Hungary were saving you from yourselves. I'm a firm believer in the principle that every nation has exactly the kind of government that it deserves. Those that have somebody around who's able to prevent their own stupidity that everybody sees except themselves don't even know how lucky they are.
     
    Ragusa likes this.
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    Truth be told, I think most people's attitude towards Orban - and Hungary in general - is one of indifference. I consider myself fairly well informed, and two weeks ago, I would not have been able to name a single public official from Hungary. I really don't think there's an anti-Hungary bias out there. I just don't think that people hold particularly strong opinions about Hungary either way.
     
  7. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    That's one of the things that several of us have mentioned as well.
     
  8. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    Hung(a)ry? Is that a country? Of course I've heard of Turkey. :p



    Disclaimer: No, I don't really think all Americans are as clueless as that young lady! Or the host. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2015
    Rotku likes this.
  9. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't know, at least the host knew France was a country. Gosh, I never get tired of that clip. If she's acting, she's a great actress. :p
     
  10. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    Much better, much better, people actually start to become on-topic a bit... Now there are two types of answers:
    (1) answers that agree that there is a great political bias (Rotku, LKD)
    (2) answers that "don't think" there is bias

    I acknowledge both, but (2) do not provide any arguments apart from the occassional -- and irrelevant -- "look, the Hungarian media law is antidemocratic, that is why you are criticized, don't point to others".
    Answers of type (2) (e.g. Taluntain and the "several" posts which share his view he implies) do not address my question at all: "How come Slovakia's antidemocratic events/law are not attacked by the same Western governments who dare to attack HU media law so rudely now?".

    Views of (2) seem to use the feat that they try to answer the (off-topic) question "Is the criticism justified on the media law" instead of "Is the amount of criticism credible on the media law from the mouth of those who stay silent about dictatoric Slovak events/laws?!". The two questions are fundamentally different. IN THIS TOPIC, IT DOES _NOT_ MATTER WHETHER THE CRITICISM ON THE MEDIA LAW IS JUSTIFIED OR NOT, WHAT MATTERS IS ITS AMOUNT AND THAT THE SAME "DEMOCRACY DEFENDER" GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN SILENT ABOUT SLOVAKIA'S DICTATORIC EVENTS/LAWS. EXPLAIN THIS, IF YOU CAN, (2) !

    Aldeth: the USA government or any politicians haven't yet attacked Hungary at all. In my posts, I'm talking about the hipocritic Western European governments such as France or Luxembourg.
     
  11. Rahkir

    Rahkir Cogito, ergo doleo

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    24
    My opinion is there there is a bias, but not for the reason you're touting.

    I don't think anyone is flat out denying a bias, more that they're saying they don't care and don't see why you do.

    Seems to be you're getting to caught up with two extremes Baronius; right and wrong. Not everyone has to think you're right or wrong, nor do you have to be completely right or wrong.
     
    Rotku likes this.
  12. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,831
    Likes Received:
    54
    Hey, what does our neck of the woods have to do with this? People here don't beat Hungarians... I think, although I wouldn't be surprised if Baronius' next topic has to do with Voivodina.

    Regarding Baronius' two-sided qualification, here I put option 3: There may be some bias towards most Central/Eastern European media, but it's neither all that "great" nor as prevalent as he states. Yeah, I'd say France or Germany are more likely to cut more slack to each other or Belgium for, say, a financial issue than they would afford Hungary, and it would probably be quite some time when the city I'm in would be considered a "true" European capital. Color me unsurprised. We shouldn't ignore the problem or give up on fixing it, but it wasn't exactly unbelievable. I'd say Slovakia isn't being treated with the same kid gloves either.

    Baronius, if anything, the accusations against the media law that got you so riled are just because it's in the current news. It's a Topic of the Month, so to speak. Reaction to a far-right party making it in the government in 2006 or a single case of possible/probable government abuse in 2007 getting the same attention... Yeah, right. There might have been more outcry regarding those cases if ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia and elsewhere could organize campaigns like those protesting the Hungarian media law, but apparently the chance was missed.

    Do you really think the governments of France or England care that much about how someone would win or lose some positions over the media market? I've heard my share of statements how law/action X was unpopular because it touched someone's interests, and I tend to consider it worth very little on its own. At most the outside critics might have reacted to some media campaign, and from what I've seen about this law they didn't need that much lying to. IMO the law needs some editing if you want to make sure it doesn't just give the people in power undue influence over the media.

    Oh, and by the way - don't try persuade me that crimes against Gypsies in Central/Eastern Europe are treated just as honestly as those agaisnt everyone else. Whether in Hungary, Romania, Greece, Serbia, Turkey or the nearest police department in my neighborhood - I'd say they won't quite get the same attention and support that a "whiter" native can expect.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
    Rotku likes this.
  13. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    Yeah, noone ever denied it might "need some editing" :) When Orbán said no changes will made at all, the reporter question was "Will you change it now?" or something like that, and his answer referred to that moment.

    It's possible they are not treated as honestly in every case, but at least the police (due to government instruction, on top of it all) does not frame the poor victim in OBVIOUS cases when EVERYONE knows the truth*, as it happened with Hedvig Malina, and also in other, smaller cases.

    * (do you think U.S. Congressman Tom Lantos, may he rest in peace, would have contacted Fico otherwise?)

    The media market has a great lobby, but (other) multionational companies have an ever greater one. Hell, they are one the major things which make the economy of a country successful. E.g. in case of Germany, which was one of the loudest in its media law attacks, Hungary is its 17th biggest commerce partner (from 200+ countries) in the world. Orbán's taxes on German multionational companies might cause a loss of enormous money for them.

    A note to all: we have heard many times in these threads "don't think the world cares much of Hungary", "Hungary is negligible", "the world does not care". Indeed this is true. Hungary is neither economic, nor military power. And true, "average" citizens of the other parts of the world might not even know Hungary exists. But never forget: it's a market. Especially for countries such as Germany. It's a market which means much money to them. Now that their interests and optimal calculations were crossed a bit, they are angry.
     
  14. sarevok66 Gems: 9/31
    Latest gem: Iol


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2006
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] Hungary is a great country, most famous for its pornstars... my favorite actress is Christel Starr

    [​IMG]

    she's plenty gorgeous
     
  15. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    Yeah we have awesome girls... and good wine too (& a number of other stuff but I don't want to use this thread for self-promotion ;))

    ---------

    Prof. Detlef Kleinert, in Die Presse:

    "In the criticism coming from Germany and Austria on the new media law of the Orbán government, there is a great deal of hypocrisy involved."

    In German:
    He also adds that in Austria, the chancellor's party decides who goes to the influential positions of the media. By the way, the whole article is available online, it's a good read.

    He mentions the word hypocrisy not just once in the article. So apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks so ;) (regardless of how democratic the media law is).
     
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    Hypocrisy in politics? Shocking! Next you'll be saying that some politicians are corrupt! :whoa:
     
  17. Baronius

    Baronius Mental harmony dispels the darkness ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,783
    Likes Received:
    14
    (1)
    By this, you contradict yourself, you fell into your own trap. :lol: Earlier you tried to imply there is no double standard against Hungary. Now you do not deny hypocrisy. Since hypocrisy in the current case exactly means double standard (in Kleinert's case, it's because of what he says about Austria; in Germany/French/Luxembourg case, it's that they pretended not to see the antidemocracy in Slovakia). Hypocrisy in the present case is exactly the manifestation of a DOUBLE STANDARD. Nice job, Tal!

    (2)
    As we already know, by this, you nicely admitted the double standard. The ironic tone of your post implies that you accept political hypocrisy as if that was the most normal thing of the world, or at least YOU IRONICALLY SUGGEST ME TO DO SO (otherwise you wouldn't ironically imply to me: "Hey, are you surprised that there is hypocrisy in politics?"), therefore this discredits all your "democratic" worrying about the media law. Because:
    It's one thing hypocrisy (besides other things) exists and noone is surprised about it in politics, BUT those of you who appeared as the champions of justice regarding the media law now pretend that it's the most normal thing of the world that Hungary is treated with a double standard. You shameless weak-personality people! (those who didn't act in the above-specified hypocritical way are obviously excluded from this, so "shameless ... people" does not apply to them).

    You know, it's all nice that many of you were so worried and acted as justice champions in the "HU media law" topics, but how funny noone had the balls here to write something like:
    "You know my opinion about the media law. It is bad, regardless whether you point to Slovakia or not. Nonetheless, it's a shame that Slovakia did and supported all those that you've presented there, and almost everyone stayed silent e.g. about the Benes laws". YEAH, it's not about WHY they stayed silent ("politics..."), it's that if you're the warrior of justice about the media law, you should probably condemn the Slovak events/laws as well (even if politics does not do that).

    Miserable conformists!
     
  18. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    6,284
    Likes Received:
    271
    Gender:
    Male
    Baronius, as Tal is implying, such stuff is par for the course. I don't think the world has an especial hate on for Hungary or Viktor Orban, it's just that, as I said before, right now they want to paint Hungary in a really bad light for reasons of which I am not aware but can hazard a guess as to their general nature.

    What I am confused about is why you are so worked up about it. Take criticism from hypocrites and left wingers with a grain of salt (and possible a Bromo) or you're gonna give yerself an ulcer before summer hits! None of the criticism will hurt Hungary long term any more than the stuff that was spewed at Bush or is spewed at Obama will hurt the US long term.
     
  19. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,815
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    336
    That’s the way, Baronious. Give it to those fraudsters, evil sinners and long-haired hippie freaks!
     
  20. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,475
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    538
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG]

    This one is for failing to understand that hypocrisy IS the norm in politics and the fact that hypocrisy exists does not make what Orban is trying to do any better than if it didn't. And for somehow, obviously due to emotional blindness over this issue, missing the fact that nobody said that we approve of the "Slovak events/laws", or that we think that they're somehow positive. Most of us just don't really care about them given that they're neither new (unlike the media law) nor topical (again unlike the media law).

    But hey, I'm just one of the miserable conformist shameless weak-personality people, so I'm probably lying. :doh:
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.